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Money and wealth

swombat.com

101–110 of 193 posts

Re: Money and wealth

#101
post #94

Very good comments, though I disagree on just one point: Money is a medium of exchange for wealth, it is not a store of wealth. It actually is a store of wealth. Money buys investments, which is where you store wealth. Money is easily transferable in and out of interest bearing accounts, which is a way to store wealth.

The fact that you can buy investments with money makes it a medium of exchange. Money is theoretically supposed to be a store of value as well, but it is not a good store of wealth, due to inflation. With current central bank policy (or at least Fed policy in the US), most interest bearing accounts are not currently a good way to store wealth, because after adjusting for inflation, their low interest rates mean that…

> Money is theoretically supposed to be a store of value as well, but it is not a good store of wealth, due to inflation.

Medium of exchange and store of value are the two main functions that "money", as such, can have, but it is misleading to say that money is "theoretically supposed" to serve both purposes. Any particular money is adopted with very specific purposes, and modern fiat money by design has a very limited role as a store of value, being intended primarily as a medium of exchange that is useful as store of value only in the short term (and only secondarily so, as utility as a short-term store of value is essential to utility as a medium of exchange) specifically in order to encourage investment in productive non-money assets as a store of value.

Re: Money and wealth

#102

The takeaway from this article is that hoarding cash is not a good store of wealth, and that the key to long-term wealth is to acquire net income generating assets. Great points for sure, but I strongly disagree with his assertions that saving up for retirement is ill-advised and that traditional investments (stocks, etc.) are too volatile and risky to be useful. He never explicitly gives any advice for acquiring net…

> I strongly disagree with his assertions that saving up for retirement is ill-advised and that traditional investments (stocks, etc.) are too volatile and risky to be useful.

With my retirement age ~40 years away, it's not clear to me that locking my money into traditional investments is a good idea: existing historical records are not statistically convincing (to me) over such a term.

A single stock market crash or economic crisis may not matter over the long term, but I'm sure you're not suggesting there will be only one such occasion: it seems more likely that there will be several, which may or may not be timed in my favour.

When I come to unlock a pension, there's no way to know what the state of the economy will be and where the legislation will have gone. However, if I am dependent on that pension, it puts me in a very vulnerable position where I am likely to be taken advantage of - perhaps by the state or by an uncompetitive financial market.

You talk about tax-advantage, but I would have to retain this over several successive governments. I personally don't believe that it's in the interests of society for significantly wealthy people to retain additional tax advantages. I suppose it's in my personal interest for now to take those advantages, but I don't feel like they can be relied upon, and seem likely be changed over this time period - perhaps even retrospectively.

Anyway, if I am not completely dependent on my retirement savings, but have a means of generating wealth in my retirement, then I am in a much better position.

This is why I find entrepreneurship a good investment: it gives me valued skills that I will most likely retain into older age (even if I fail at first). Whereas, people who remain in traditional jobs have some danger of being obsoleted, or competed out of their jobs in older age.

Re: Money and wealth

#103
I have to disagree with this part of the author's post...

"But surely, having a lot of money, say a billion dollars, is the same as being wealthy? In theory, perhaps. In practice, it seems people who know how to maintain wealth would never keep a large sum in cash around, but quickly turn it into net income generating assets, and those who do not (e.g. lottery winners) often quickly find that the seemingly infinite pile of cash has evaporated into nothing."

You are a regular working class dude and all the sudden come into 100 million? 350 million? 1 billion dollars? The LAST thing you really need to do is "invest" that money to generate income. That's how most lottery winners lose their money is by making bad "investments".

You already have more money then you would have earned in a lifetime 1000x or so over that you can't possibly spend so why would you "risk" any of it? You live off the bank interest and have a really nice "modest" existence. Oh and... Stay away from money grabbing relatives but you do, of course share some of your good fortune.

Re: Money and wealth

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people misunderstand what a pain in the ass buying and renting property can be. Unless one is wealthy enough to own multiple properties and have a full-time management company doing all of his work for him, he's going to be taking a fairly hands-on role. Most tennants are flaky. Our perceptions of such might be colored by the fact that -- I assume -- a lot of us here are white-collar professionals ma…

Based on your post it appears you're not profiting at all from your assets - presumably then you're currently selling up? Is this more "first world problems" and in fact you're making a reasonable return given your investment of time and money? I've several friends who're small time landlords - ie own a second residence they let out - they all make a tidy profit and none of them appear to have been exposed any more t…

How did your friends get the second residence? Do they have a mortgage on the rental property? That makes things much harder to break even.

For a lot of people, the only rental property they can afford is in lower income neighborhoods, and the return on investment is often much better there too. But the headaches are also much greater.

Re: Money and wealth

#105
post #31

This is also why wealth redistribution works far less well than people who imagine it as money redistribution think it will. Part of the wealth is tied up in the owner, and that can't be redistributed without loss, sometimes great loss. Let's take a concrete example. Suppose that class warfare rhetoric utterly wins, and as its first scalp The People decide that the filthy rich Bill Gates needs to have 100% of his wea…

I have always found it odd people who are so against wealth (or income) redistribution always talk about the taking of money from the rich to the poor. Where have you been the last 30 years (in the US)? The only redistribution has been from the working poor and middle class to the rich. Really against wealth redistribution? Talk about a bottom up approach to tweaking our economy instead of trickle down...

Actually... the redistribution is closer from "the old rich" to "the new rich".

50 years ago, when you said "the rich", it would mean descendants of Carnegie, Hersey, or other big name company builders who created monopolies in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The majority of "the rich" were lawyers and doctors with Ivy League degrees and long pedigrees.

Today's rich are Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, Gabe Newell, Elon Musk. While you'd call them perhaps middle class, or upper middle class (Gates and Zuckerberg went to Harvard afterall), their empires are clearly self-built and self-sustained. These people did not inherit their riches like "the old rich" did.

The "new rich" suffer from boom and bust cycles. 20% of Americans will find themselves in the position of "New Rich" for at least a year, before their self-built empire falls back down to middle-class or lower status.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/business-headlines/201312...

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I admit... this is partly because college tuition rates were much much lower for Generation X / Baby Boomers than it is today. Government programs for education were never stronger than in those years. Today's young face rising tuition rates as education costs are cut... and for-profit schools have started up to more or less steal money from today's youth.

Re: Money and wealth

#106
I disagree with the blog post (although I agree with one of the points, that money are not a wealth storage mechanism).

There are valid reasons to make savings - accumulate money (or any other liquid asset with high exchange value, not necessarily use value - like gold). According to many economists, this is not true; rationally, one should only invest (exchange money for something producing more money later) or consume (make yourself feel better).

The reason to make savings is to postpone the decision to invest or consume (which is irreversible, due to physical nature of the world), and by doing that, you may gain an edge over other people who are forced to make that decision earlier. In other words, you gain power over other people by saving money (which is kind of what Marx what saying about the goals of capitalist - to make more money, ultimately).

Let me give a couple of examples: A rich capitalist (having a lot of money on hand) can survive a strike of his employees forcing them to reduce their demands; temporarily outlive better competition; react to new challenges by investing into technology already proven elsewhere; temporarily reduce prices to drive competition out of the market, and so on. Although in these examples I talk about capitalists, this is true for anybody, but the effect is not so apparent.

Of course, the extent how much one can do that or how much it will help depends on the money distribution in society. You cannot save all the time, and not everybody can save at the same time - otherwise you get a deflation. Thus it's not a sure-fire way to gain power, because nothing is. The blog post calls it "personal freedom", but it's not just that; that's very individualistic view of what's going on.

And since there are valid reasons to accumulate money, they are not just a medium of exchange. Whether or not the result (power over other people) is "wealth" depends on personal taste, I guess.

Re: Money and wealth

#107

I had a sneaking suspicion about the source of the thoughts behind the article as soon as I read the phrase "net income generating assets"—then saw the culprit in "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". If you're going to read Kiyosaki's books, then you need to also do yourself a favor and read the criticisms thereof. Kiyosaki borders on a fraud, and many of the rich-dad'isms are flat out illegal. Indeed, as far as anyone is able to a…

Came here to say this. Kiyosaki should not be listened to by anyone. His advice consists of banal generalities at best, and outright fraud at worst.

Re: Money and wealth

#108

The takeaway from this article is that hoarding cash is not a good store of wealth, and that the key to long-term wealth is to acquire net income generating assets. Great points for sure, but I strongly disagree with his assertions that saving up for retirement is ill-advised and that traditional investments (stocks, etc.) are too volatile and risky to be useful. He never explicitly gives any advice for acquiring net…

> I strongly disagree with his assertions that saving up for retirement is ill-advised and that traditional investments (stocks, etc.) are too volatile and risky to be useful. With my retirement age ~40 years away, it's not clear to me that locking my money into traditional investments is a good idea: existing historical records are not statistically convincing (to me) over such a term. A single stock market crash or…

> it seems more likely that there will be several, which may or may not be timed in my favour.

This is why people are advised to move into bonds as they get closer to retirement age. Easier said than done though, if you just saw the stock part of your savings get cut in half. Very tempting to stay in stocks until it comes back.

Re: Money and wealth

#109

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the PG article that makes pretty much the same point. One of my favorite essays by him, incidentally. http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html

I was going to post the same link and found that you already did. I totally agree.

Re: Money and wealth

#110
post #3

This makes sense but then what are some useful ways to use cash to build wealth if not buying stocks and other investments? I'm a young guy with plenty of money in the bank (in the tens of thousands; obviously not enough to retire but I could quit my job and do nothing for a while) and basically no debt. I find and I'm sure I'm not alone here with this feeling that, while I could spend a lot more money, I'm perfectly…

This really depends on your specific goals, your time frame and other aspects of your financial situation. Personal financial planning doesn't have to be complicated, but you need to be aware of your investment options and which are suitable for a given goal and/or time frame.

When will you need the money? In one year, or not until retirement? What are you planning on doing with the money? (If you don't have any plans, at least have an idea of when you might need to withdraw it)

Probably the biggest factor going to be your time frame. If you are going to need the money in 1-5 years (say for a house down payment), I would stay away from equity/stocks; in general, the proportion going towards equity should decrease as the time available decreases, because the volatility can result in negative returns. If you're going to need it in less than a year, just dump it in a savings account or similar where principal is guaranteed.

At the polar opposite is if you're just concerned about long-term growth. Then, I would in invest in a broad-market ETF like some of the Vanguard ones. Come up with an asset-allocation plan that ensures an acceptable level of risk.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of directly investing real estate for the purposes of producing rental income. I just don't have any concern for property management, maintenance or dealing with tenants.

If you do go down this route, be sure to do the analysis and compare the expected income and risk with the alternatives (i.e. stocks/bonds, etc.)

This is one area the author of the article falls short in. There's lots of mention of "income generating assets" (with somewhat of preference to real assets) but not really any thought given to the different risks associated with each.

There seems to be an oversimplification that the only way to increase your wealth is to own assets that produce a cash flow (i.e. stocks that pay dividends, properties that generate rental income) with no focus given to capital gains. Capital gains have traditionally been a huge part of wealth gains and furthermore, may be more tax-efficient. None of this is mentioned, instead anything that doesn't produce a cash flow is hand-wavingly dismissed as "buy and pray".

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