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Money and wealth

swombat.com

31–40 of 193 posts

Re: Money and wealth

#31
This is also why wealth redistribution works far less well than people who imagine it as money redistribution think it will. Part of the wealth is tied up in the owner, and that can't be redistributed without loss, sometimes great loss.

Let's take a concrete example. Suppose that class warfare rhetoric utterly wins, and as its first scalp The People decide that the filthy rich Bill Gates needs to have 100% of his wealth confiscated for the good of The People. For simplicity, let's assume that 100% of his wealth is in Microsoft stock. So, The People United take all of his stuff. What do they get? Well, they don't several billion dollars. They get "several billion dollar's worth" of Microsoft stock. Well... that didn't accomplish much. We can't clothe or feed the people Microsoft stock. We need to liquidate it into money to get anywhere, and The People aren't too happy about the filthy capitalist stench of suddenly owning that much stock anyhow, so they immediately sell it all. Of course, dumping all that stock on the market at once immediately sends the price plunging; depending on how foolish The People in terms of wanting to be rid of it immediately it could well plunge to nearly zero. The People destroyed billions of dollars of wealth to obtain probably hundreds of millions of dollars, and quite possibly destroyed Microsoft in the process, hardly a net gain. The stock was as valuable as it was partially because it was in Bill Gates' hands.

In practice, you can't just "claw" wealth from the wealthy and hand it to "the poor" and have the effect you're expecting. You can certainly destroy large amounts of wealth, and yes, the poor will come away with something, but it's far less efficient than the "it's all just money" model leads you to believe. You aren't taking "$100 dollars" away from the wealthy and giving "$100 dollars" to the poor; at scale, you're moving a $100 asset out of the hands of "the wealthy" and into the hands of "the poor", and that's not going to produce the results you were looking for. And again, let me emphasize, it does work to an extent, it just doesn't work as well as you might naively think.

Politics being what they are, people are going to assume that I'm a fan of this truth because I'm saying it. I'm not. It would actually be really cool if redistribution worked as easily as people thought it does! I mean, seriously, awesome. How wonderful it would be if equality could be engineered so trivially! And let me be clear, no sarcasm there. However, it is still true, and it is something we ignore at our own peril. Also, does that mean all our social engineering schemes are hopeless? Well, no, again regardless of whether I'm a fan of them or not, but it does mean that, again, it's harder than we'd like to produce the results we're looking for, and it's a lot easier to overestimate the benefit to the poor and underestimate the damage to the wealthy and the general societal wealth (and even if you don't really care about the wealthy, you ought to care about the general societal wealth) that such schemes can have.

Re: Money and wealth

#32
What's lacking is is a call for diversification. Along with that pile of cash you should also have money making enterprises. If you have one without the other, the risks are higher for a complete loss. Money can rot like potatoes but if you keep the farm running you could also end up with a failed farm when you're too old to fix it and no saved potatoes in your basement to sustain you.

Re: Money and wealth

#33
post #17

Robert Kiyosaki's claims are pretty hard to verify. Rich Dad, Poor Dad is not a good source for financial information. Edit: Forbes link ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/2012/10/10/rich-dad-... )

It doesn't matter. The concepts he teaches is what matters.

Yes, it bloody well matters. What's the point in getting some high-level concepts correct if all the nitty-gritty detail is wishful thinking and fantasy?

Instead, read Warren Buffett's letters to shareholders and take it from there.

Re: Money and wealth

#35
But, as a more generic category, the fundamental pillars of wealth seem to me to be health (including youth, energy, endurance), education (including work ethic, general knowledge, wisdom, self-knowledge) and intelligence.

Health is extremely valuable, but fickle. You can lose it for no good reason and through no fault of your own. One just has to do the best one can. As for education and intelligence, I'm not sure I agree. Those resources are the wealth of the world. It's intelligence and creativity and just raw fucking grit that keep the fucking place from imploding. But many intelligent people end up as excess capacity, unused and maltreated. You need connections and credibility to unlock them. Education used to deliver that, out of the box; that's no longer true.

Ultimately, the best security is to be able to reliably get paid, well, for doing something that doesn't harm you to do it. That shouldn't be hard for programmers to arrange, but the age discrimination in our industry is disgusting, so I wouldn't count on being able to get quality jobs at 70, even with full capability and intelligence intact. When you get to that point where you the narcissism of the career world and its perverse (chickenhawking, see here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/vc-istan-6-th...) age obssssions go against you, it helps to have a wad of cash.

[I]t seems to me that the idea that the best preparation for retirement is to save up a load of money is a horribly noxious lie that has likely led to the bitter disappointment of hundreds of millions if not billions of people.

Well, it shouldn't be "money". It should be a portfolio of bonds, stocks, and commodities. (Real estate shouldn't be trusted; there are too many ways for misbehaving neighbors or politicians to fuck it up.) However, the idea that one can keep living off one's talents at the age of 70 is a fantasy. I wish it were that way; ageism is fucked-up and if it affects me in 30 years I am taking a Second Amendment Solution type approach to finally drop a pipe on that shit. Many people have their talents and ability intact at and beyond that age, but I would not want to be applying for programming or business jobs at that age.

Re: Money and wealth

#36
post #3

This makes sense but then what are some useful ways to use cash to build wealth if not buying stocks and other investments? I'm a young guy with plenty of money in the bank (in the tens of thousands; obviously not enough to retire but I could quit my job and do nothing for a while) and basically no debt. I find and I'm sure I'm not alone here with this feeling that, while I could spend a lot more money, I'm perfectly…

Quit your job for a year and write a book about getting rich.

Re: Money and wealth

#37
post #31

This is also why wealth redistribution works far less well than people who imagine it as money redistribution think it will. Part of the wealth is tied up in the owner, and that can't be redistributed without loss, sometimes great loss. Let's take a concrete example. Suppose that class warfare rhetoric utterly wins, and as its first scalp The People decide that the filthy rich Bill Gates needs to have 100% of his wea…

Bill Gates is a special case -- I would imagine the vast majority of stock (surely over 95%, maybe 99%) does not have value because of who owns it.

Also, if the rich are sitting on wealth which loses values as soon as it is spent, perhaps quite a lot of the "wealth" was never really there in the first place? (although there we are perhaps getting into philosophy)

Re: Money and wealth

#38
For the gamers in the house, this sounds quite similar to StarCraft and Magic: The Gathering.

In both games, unspent minerals/gas/mana is seen as a bad thing. Either you have your sights set on something specific a little expensive (battlecruiser/expansion), you are building an army for an upcoming attack, or you are reinvesting it back into your economy.

In none of those cases are you letting your money sitting around without purpose. An army of 500 mineral marines is definitely going to beat a player with no army and 500 minerals.

Re: Money and wealth

#39
You get it, swombat (at least in my humble opinion). Thank you for posting that, I hope that it helps some people understand the distinction between currency and assets that produce returns.

edit: Just thinking further on it... I tend to approach things by thinking of pathological cases. In the case of a deflationary or flat currency, I think currency hoarding is a rational response economically even though it's unproductive and leads to high concentrations of wealth. On the other end, inflation that's too high will lead to an economy that is very illiquid and prone to solvency crises. There is a high incentive to minimize cash on hand and maximize debt. In my lifetime I've really come around on the value of a managed and low inflation to having a productive society.

Re: Money and wealth

#40
"Money is a medium of exchange for wealth, it is not a store of wealth."

Disagree. To be a medium of exchange, money must have "holding" value (because money does not circulate, but simply switches holders: http://blog.oleganza.com/post/43378777734/on-circulation-of-...). The liquidity of money is in how many people want to hold it in their cash balances. The more people want it - the bigger value of the total supply (regardless if it's slowly shrinking or growing). The more and longer people want to hold cash, the bigger liquidity - the more "wealth" you can reliably "move" from one person to another. E.g. Bitcoin valuation is pretty small right now, so people can't use Bitcoin (yet) to make multi-billion purchases. Because to make multi-billion purchase one of the parties must hold billions and another must be willing to hold billions (and then find others to who give them if they need in the future).

So the money to be a good liquid medium of exchange must be a good store of wealth. And the more wealth it is "storing", the better medium of exchange it is.

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