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Frameworkless JavaScript

moot.it

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Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#21

Post by aaronem »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #10
sync wrote: post #3

Not using a JS Framework? Congratulations, you've just built your own ad hoc JS Framework. Suddenly, anyone who joins moot will have to invest tons of effort in your custom framework instead of being able to hit the ground running.

This sentiment, expressed collectively, commoditizes the entire profession. How can you expect to ask for raises if all devs are basically interchangeable? If we've eradicated all notions of design, and follow prescriptive rules of structuring and solving problems that anybody can Google and follow, then what avenues are left to express technical ability? What differentiates you?

Calmly, Chicken Little, calmly! Perhaps the sky is not falling after all...

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#22

Post by polskibus »

mietek wrote: post #15

I've just gone through a similar process of reviewing and discarding a number of JavaScript frameworks. I've settled on React, and I can't recommend it enough! React handles mostly the V in MVC, and does an admirable job of it. It even provides a cross-platform event abstraction, which would've saved the author some trouble. http://facebook.github.io/react/ http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2013/06/05/why-react.ht…

I had the same thought while reading the article. React seems great for people who don't need many libraries to develop complex web apps.

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#23

Post by cliffbean »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #10
sync wrote: post #3

Not using a JS Framework? Congratulations, you've just built your own ad hoc JS Framework. Suddenly, anyone who joins moot will have to invest tons of effort in your custom framework instead of being able to hit the ground running.

This sentiment, expressed collectively, commoditizes the entire profession. How can you expect to ask for raises if all devs are basically interchangeable? If we've eradicated all notions of design, and follow prescriptive rules of structuring and solving problems that anybody can Google and follow, then what avenues are left to express technical ability? What differentiates you?

This sentiment, expressed collectively and somewhat unsympathetically, portrays the entire profession as prioritizing job security over true excellence.

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#24

Post by mattgreenrocks »

aaronem wrote: post #21
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment, expressed collectively, commoditizes the entire profession. How can you expect to ask for raises if all devs are basically interchangeable? If we've eradicated all notions of design, and follow prescriptive rules of structuring and solving problems that anybody can Google and follow, then what avenues are left to express technical ability? What differentiates you?

Calmly, Chicken Little, calmly! Perhaps the sky is not falling after all...

Nope, it isn't. But clinging to frameworks in lieu of actual program design can hamper your ability to design something that doesn't fit neatly into a predefined box.

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#25

Post by sheetjs »

While I agree with the salient point in the article, I disagree with the emphasis on the size of the script. If using a framework reduces headaches and saves developer time, it will be significantly less expensive to use the framework than to roll and host your own solution. ALSO, there exist cheap/free CDNs that host many of these libraries:

backbone -- http://cdnjs.com/libraries/backbone.js/

rainbow -- http://cdnjs.com/libraries/rainbow/

socket.io -- http://cdnjs.com/libraries/socket.io/

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#26

Post by akbar501 »

mietek wrote: post #15

I've just gone through a similar process of reviewing and discarding a number of JavaScript frameworks. I've settled on React, and I can't recommend it enough! React handles mostly the V in MVC, and does an admirable job of it. It even provides a cross-platform event abstraction, which would've saved the author some trouble. http://facebook.github.io/react/ http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2013/06/05/why-react.ht…

React is a view + template, not a framework.

From the React site: "React as the V in MVC".

It's perfectly normal to combine react with something like Backbone as more complete solution.

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#27

Post by Arnor »

onion2k wrote: post #9
binarymax wrote: post #6

It is refreshing to see this post. As someone who has tried, and not really taken to, all three of those frameworks I sympathize. Stick with what works for you. Shipping code on your own terms is the end goal. The customer viewing the page does not care one iota what framework you are using.

Moot's customers are not the people viewing the discussions; their customer is the developer integrating their code into a website. A framework might be important to them. If their argument was "We didn't like any of the frameworks so we built moot without one" that'd be great, but they're making the case that all developers would be better off without, and that's pretty damn dubious.

I fail to see where the article proselytized against JS frameworks for anyone. They highlighted their specific needs and explained why each of the big 3 JS frameworks didn't fill that need. Can you point out where I missed this "all developers would be better off without..." tone?

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#28

Post by aaronem »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #24
aaronem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calmly, Chicken Little, calmly! Perhaps the sky is not falling after all...

Nope, it isn't. But clinging to frameworks in lieu of actual program design can hamper your ability to design something that doesn't fit neatly into a predefined box.

Of course. But no one seems to be suggesting otherwise, that I can see, and for the relatively common case in which one needs quickly to prototype and roll out something which does "fit neatly into a predefined box", a framework is often just the thing.

Re: Frameworkless JavaScript

#29

Post by mattgreenrocks »

cliffbean wrote: post #23
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment, expressed collectively, commoditizes the entire profession. How can you expect to ask for raises if all devs are basically interchangeable? If we've eradicated all notions of design, and follow prescriptive rules of structuring and solving problems that anybody can Google and follow, then what avenues are left to express technical ability? What differentiates you?

This sentiment, expressed collectively and somewhat unsympathetically, portrays the entire profession as prioritizing job security over true excellence.

Indeed.

But excellence should mean using the right design for a program, not the Good Enough one advocated by today's fashionable framework. I'm more concerned about collective effects (such as negating the need for analysis and design).

This is yet another instance of Worse is Better.

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