Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#31

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #25

ppprop wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it seems like boys are encouraged to go into tech" Please stop encouraging this lie. I've never been encouraged to go into tech, and I'd venture a guess that most people here weren't either. As a matter of fact, for me it was quite the opposite, because every time I was fiddling with a computer, I was told to "stop playing games" and do something "worthwhile".

Even so, it's worse (on average) for women. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2817708

saying on average implies you have some sort of statistic, which you don't.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#32

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #19

aroch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you genuinely suggesting that every degree should have a 1:1 (or thereabouts) distribution of male and female graduates?

Not necessarily, although it does worry me that the ratio is declining. Specifically, computer-related fields make more than average amount of money, so getting women into tech would help reduce income inequality and associated issues in our society. But here my specific point is: tech fields would be better off with more women!

income inequality is a myth, people with the same job and same amount of experience make the same amount of money on average.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#33

Post by athesyn » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

ppprop wrote: post #22

pessimizer wrote: post #20

There's no connection between the headline and the article, which not only doesn't examine the results of any women-only initiatives, but only mentions a single example (that it seems to approve of.) >But there’s something wrong when we treat half the population like a minority or special interest group. There's also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too. We remediate…

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

Maybe he doesn't live in a modern liberal society. I doubt it though.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#34

Post by watwut » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

montage wrote: post #8

sp332 wrote: post #4

If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.

Maybe its because women down't want to take Computer Science?

Woman that wants to study computer science or like coding will have no trouble to go to study it. However, if a girl is not sure what she wants to do, she will almost certainly NOT pick up computer science, because it is thought about as a boy major.

Conversely, if a boy does not know what he wants to do, he is likely to go for CS, because that is the "usual" decision.

Not every boy who went to study CS was dreaming in code since elementary school. Most of them learned to code in college. However, CS girls I knew usually picked it up because they really wanted to do it.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#35

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

ppprop wrote: post #22

pessimizer wrote: post #20

There's no connection between the headline and the article, which not only doesn't examine the results of any women-only initiatives, but only mentions a single example (that it seems to approve of.) >But there’s something wrong when we treat half the population like a minority or special interest group. There's also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too. We remediate…

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

1. Men run everything.

2. Men often don't think of women as human.

3. Women are under attack by men.

I don't think these points are controversial.

1. Women are 50% of the workforce, but 4.5% of fortune 1000 CEO positions.

2. Women didn't get the right to vote in America until 50 years after black people, who were officially only partially human.

3. Is a characterization.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#36

Post by mkr-hn » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

velis_vel wrote: post #24

Scienz wrote: post #6

It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, "Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are." The healthy thing…

> It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. If two people are running in a race, and one of them has been running the past 4 miles with a 50-pound weight on their back, taking the weight off isn't going to make the race fair…

Most people have a weight that's not obvious to others. One person runs with their 50 pound sexist society weight. Another runs with their 50 pound tormented in school and has no one to turn to for help in moving past it weight. Another has a 50 pound echoes of institutional racism weight. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Everyone could do with programs to help unload their weights. No one needs or deserves more weight.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#37

Post by sp332 » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

ps4fanboy wrote: post #12

sp332 wrote: post #4

If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.

Are you suggesting that its falling because of sexism? Do you have any evidence of this?

There's a lot of data on this page http://www.womenintechnology.org/witef/resources It's a bit scattered but here are some parts I found interesting:

Women in the mathematics, and engineering have long been underrepresented in tenured and full professor positions but overrepresented in untenured and junior faculty positions, even after controlling for publication productivity and institutional affiliation... Today, women faculty in science and engineering are still promoted more slowly and receive fewer honors and leadership positions.

77 percent say significant numbers of women and underrepresented minorities are missing from the U.S. STEM workforce today because they were not identified, encouraged or nurtured to pursue STEM studies early on.

"Persistent stereotypes that say STEM isn’t for girls or minorities" is one of the top causes of under-representation in STEM.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#38

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:58 PM UTC

athesyn wrote: post #33

ppprop wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

Maybe he doesn't live in a modern liberal society. I doubt it though.

Any particular point to object to, or just a general speculation about who I am?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#39

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #37

ps4fanboy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that its falling because of sexism? Do you have any evidence of this?

There's a lot of data on this page http://www.womenintechnology.org/witef/resources It's a bit scattered but here are some parts I found interesting: Women in the mathematics, and engineering have long been underrepresented in tenured and full professor positions but overrepresented in untenured and junior faculty positions, even after controlling for publication productivity and institutional affiliation... Today, w…

I didnt even know who my professors where or would be when I enrolled in university, are you suggesting women dont enroll in IT because there arent female professors?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#40

Post by quinnchr » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

The goal of women oriented initiatives isn't to tell women they aren't as capable. The author may be perfectly capable and she may be treated on her merit alone, but in aggregate women are not treated like that.

From http://www.oecd.org/inclusive-growth/Closing%20the%20Gender%...

"They reveal considerable gender differences among the self-employed, particularly those who are also employers. Figure 22.1 shows that across the 27 EU countries only 25% of business owners with employees are women (for definitions, see Annex IV.A1). The low share of women has only marginally grown over the last decade in the EU27, Canada and United States"

Let's not kid ourselves. Women face serious hurdles in entrepreneurship. They have less access to credit when starting new businesses for one. Women who own businesses are on average higher educated than there male counterparts yet they earn significantly lower salaries.

I will end by pointing out that women focused initiatives help everyone, not just women. There is a positive correlation between gender equality and GDP per capita, everyone wins in an equitable society.