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SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

sixcalifornias.info

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those over-represented tiny red states will oppose it by every means I'm not sure why they would oppose replacing one giant Democratic-majority state with 6 states that aren't mostly Democratic-majority -- it improves the Republican structural position in the Senate and Presidential elections.

There might be a temptation for tiny red states to support the move as a way to improve the Republican position, but... (a) Such an advantage might be transitory. Who's to say those new states will remain red, especially when they're submitted to a new level of political targeting that they never were when the state outcome was dominated by urban blue-ness? Even those tiny-state folks can recognize a two edged sword…

> Such an advantage might be transitory.

Well, yeah. Some of us still remember that California was a Republican solid state in national politics not too long ago.

> Who's to say those new states will remain red, especially when they're submitted to a new level of political targeting that the state outcome was dominated by urban blue-ness?

I can't understand what the "especially..." part of this is trying to communicate. It sounds like there is an interesting thought behind it, but I can't penetrate the way it is phrased to get to the meaning.

> There are small blue states too.

And big states, blue and red, that have powerful interests that like them being big (as well as powerful interests that don't, too be sure) which will seek to avoid balkanization getting established as a thing.

> Both effects are likely to be outweighed by issues that have nothing to do with red vs. blue. The over-represented states want to stay that way, no matter which parties are involved.

I think that claiming that this will be the dominant effect understates the degree to which national politics in the US is driven by tribal partisanship, but certainly partisanship wouldn't be the only factor influencing it.

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#22
I grew up in Washington state and there were periodic calls to divide it vertically down the middle so that those in the (less populous) eastern (largely Republican) half of the state could be more independent of the (more populous, largely Democrat) western half of the state. The kicker was the proposed name for the new state: Lincoln.

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#23
post #10
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12 Senators, for a start.

In Switzerland, some cantons (their equivalent of a state) decided to split. Before they had 2 votes each in the Council of States; after the split, each half-canton got 1 vote each - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland#Half-can... . It would be fair to split California into 2 and then each half would get 1 senator. Otherwise you might try to play the population card, but other states would need to ap…

[deleted]

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#24
post #17
post #13

I already debated this before... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940199 I hope this doesn't pass because I know how the lines will be drawn. The rich, privileged will be grouped together and will take advantage of the poor.

The poor have nothing for the rich and privileged to take advantage of . It can only ever happen in the other direction.

[deleted]

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#25
post #18

Well, there is probably a greater cultural gap between San Francisco and Los Angeles than exists between Fargo and Little Rock. And I do have a preference for smaller and more responsive polities. But with my foil hat on, I realize that this is a play by non-Californians to manipulate national politics at the expense of the states. I'll only support it if they do California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, and New York at…

I find the idea that political and cultural boundaries should align to be a very sad and unimaginative one. (Not suggesting you hold an opposite view.)

How else could you do it? Tax only the people in favor of infrastructure improvements and prevent everyone else from using them? Only arrest people using recreational drugs if they voted against legalization?

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#26
post #16

California is a beautiful state and I never want to see it broken up. Joshua Trees, Lake Tahoe, the coast of Mendocino, in fact all of Highway 1, Alpine, Torrey Pines, Russia River, the rocky hills of North County San Diego, Red Woods and Big Sur, San Francisco, Balboa Park, White Sands, Death Valley, and on and on. The many missions. The many universities. Between Hollywood and Silicon Valley, California touches mor…

Breaking up the state will provide better democratic representation.

Breaking up the state might provide more representation on the federal level. I disagree that it would be better. Also, I don't know if anyone has considered this but, nothing is stopping California from creating six separate localities with their own "governors" and laws under the California umbrella (sort of like mini states within the state).

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#27
post #16

California is a beautiful state and I never want to see it broken up. Joshua Trees, Lake Tahoe, the coast of Mendocino, in fact all of Highway 1, Alpine, Torrey Pines, Russia River, the rocky hills of North County San Diego, Red Woods and Big Sur, San Francisco, Balboa Park, White Sands, Death Valley, and on and on. The many missions. The many universities. Between Hollywood and Silicon Valley, California touches mor…

Breaking up the state will provide better democratic representation.

Adopting a sane electoral system (i.e., not FPTP in single-member districts) will do that. Breaking the state up will not in any significant way do that.

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#28
post #17
post #13

I already debated this before... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940199 I hope this doesn't pass because I know how the lines will be drawn. The rich, privileged will be grouped together and will take advantage of the poor.

The poor have nothing for the rich and privileged to take advantage of . It can only ever happen in the other direction.

So, labor is a new concept to you?

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#29
post #25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea that political and cultural boundaries should align to be a very sad and unimaginative one. (Not suggesting you hold an opposite view.)

How else could you do it? Tax only the people in favor of infrastructure improvements and prevent everyone else from using them? Only arrest people using recreational drugs if they voted against legalization?

You could do it the way it is done now. Geographically.

Re: SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

#30

California is a beautiful state and I never want to see it broken up. Joshua Trees, Lake Tahoe, the coast of Mendocino, in fact all of Highway 1, Alpine, Torrey Pines, Russia River, the rocky hills of North County San Diego, Red Woods and Big Sur, San Francisco, Balboa Park, White Sands, Death Valley, and on and on. The many missions. The many universities. Between Hollywood and Silicon Valley, California touches mor…

Yes. We must preserve diversity... by crushing it under a single government. Power to the people... the people in Sacramento, am I right?

Keep on trying to control the frame ("weird rich kids", "embarrassment", "hearts and minds"). We've reached peak centralization. The future is decentralization, subsidiary, and localized control.

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