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The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

blog.joellehman.com

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#61
ABD in ethics here. I can't believe someone actually drew a line on a chart and labelled it 'ethics'. This is a category mistake, like accusing a shade of blue of murder, or asking the Pythagorean theorem on a date.

If you're going to use ridiculous oversimplifications, please at least use the ones that have been vetted by people who have actually given the matter a decade or two of thought. It's not like there's a shortage of candidates either. But whatever it is, ethics is not a quantity, and it is certainly not a quantity over time.

By the way, Pythagorean Theorem says hi.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#62
post #14

It is not a matter of morality. Suppose you have 100 billion robots, each programmed not to press a world-ending button. Some of them will press the button. It's a matter of statistics and the moral framework of the other robots doesn't even enter into the equation. That's exactly the situation we're in. Moral progress has always trailed behind our capabilities, and if I may say something heretical here, maybe it's a…

The most inhuman acts of ignorance and hatred have traditionally been committed by societies, not individuals.

Individuals may have the ability to commandeer jet planes and fly into buildings, but only a nation can build a nuclear missile system capable of annihilating the planet.

The problem isn't with individuals. The problem is with society. And on that front — societal ethics seem to be keeping pace with technological growth. It might be technology that is propelling our societal ethics forward.

We'll always have broken men and women who do terrible things, but we might not always have broken societies that lynch, torture, pollute, and war.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#63

ABD in ethics here. I can't believe someone actually drew a line on a chart and labelled it 'ethics'. This is a category mistake, like accusing a shade of blue of murder, or asking the Pythagorean theorem on a date. If you're going to use ridiculous oversimplifications, please at least use the ones that have been vetted by people who have actually given the matter a decade or two of thought. It's not like there's a s…

...in the future, it might also help to remember that models of morality/ethics are approximately as hard to get right as cryptosystems -- harder, if you factor in the inherent squishiness and inexactitude of the subject matter. As with crypto, so with ethics: trust your libs before you trust your midnight flights.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#64
Morality is one area that scares the bejesus out of me.

Conservative moralists argue that we must prohibit something because it's potentially dangerous, while liberal moralists argue that we must encourage it because it's potentially beneficial. Absolutists argue that morality cannot, or must not change, much to the chagrin of the relativists. And all this before we even get into the culturally directed moralities!

Compounding the problem is everyone's surety that THEIR morality is superior, with some even suggesting that their axiomatically superior morality be imposed upon others, by law, or even by force, if necessary.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#65
post #14

It is not a matter of morality. Suppose you have 100 billion robots, each programmed not to press a world-ending button. Some of them will press the button. It's a matter of statistics and the moral framework of the other robots doesn't even enter into the equation. That's exactly the situation we're in. Moral progress has always trailed behind our capabilities, and if I may say something heretical here, maybe it's a…

The most inhuman acts of ignorance and hatred have traditionally been committed by societies, not individuals. Individuals may have the ability to commandeer jet planes and fly into buildings, but only a nation can build a nuclear missile system capable of annihilating the planet. The problem isn't with individuals. The problem is with society. And on that front — societal ethics seem to be keeping pace with technolo…

And again I don't think I've made myself clear enough, sorry for that. The TL;DR of my hypothesis is: we'll never be "ready" as defined by the author. Even a perfectly ethical society wouldn't be ready. Plus, we're moving into an age where atrocities traditionally committed by larger groups can now be executed by individuals. Technical regression isn't the solution, and neither is some group of angelic wise men who get to decide what technological freedoms we're ready for. We aren't even ready for simple hand tools. No amount of moral progress is going to be enough.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#66
Unfortunately, the entire conversation is based on the premise that morality evolves at the species level, and not the level of the individual. And this is both a damning statement of humanity as well as a heretical statement against religion and history.

Morality was always inside the human. No evolution needed here. But from an evolutionary perspective, the evolution of morality was the defining factor that made us drastically different other species.

Then what causes some people to be Buddha, Jesus, Moses, or Muhammadﷺ while others to be ignorant and vicious? Morality needs to be brought to health and vigor after being subdued because of social or political conflict. This is often termed enlightenment.

And religion has always been a powerful vehicle and force to establish morality in individuals, a vehicle that carries arguably the divine rule, or an evolutionary mechanism that is carried through trial and failure.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#67

Before the 1960's, when God was in schools, both Blacks and Whites, didn't have to lock their doors. Before the 1960's, there was no iron bars on windows, dead bolt locks, car, home and business alarms, and no security cameras in the home, business or city wide. Those are the facts, especially for the atheists and agnostics.

Morality without God is a meaningless conversation, because without authority moral choices are completely voluntary.

No matter how much progress we make as human beings, we are still 100% dependent on God. My favourite apocryphal story illustrates this point:

---

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#68
I enjoyed your essay, and I think it's good that you're getting people talking about this.

I don't think we can expect to get the same sort of moral improvement we do in the fastest-moving areas of technology by throwing technology at the problem of morality. We're still not all that far along in learning how to treat mental illnesses, and using medicine to make people more moral would probably be similarly difficult. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not a solution, just that we shouldn't be surprised if building a solution of that sort turns out to have a difficulty more like curing PTSD than preventing childbed fever.

I also think that making humans act more morally probably has more to do with helping us recognize and think clearly about moral decisions, than making us care more. One of the reasons the Gates foundation is special is that they're trying to help people efficiently. The way human minds are built makes it hard to realize that it's important to be efficient at doing good, rather than just to make an effort.

I guess this is coming from someone whose empathy dial is turned up to eleven anyway, though, so it could also be that different people have different problems to overcome to be more moral. The problems I had were not forgetting about causes of suffering just because they don't happen to be staring me in the face at the moment, and then focusing on the right things.

The website LessWrong has some interesting writing about why humans suck at charity http://lesswrong.com/lw/aid/heuristics_and_biases_in_charity... , and learning how to reason better in general is the main thing they write about. The main effects the stuff I read there has had on my morality-related actions are that I take my career more seriously (I don't actually care that much about more money for me, but I do care about more resources for improving the world), and I worry less about small stuff (I accept inefficiencies in my own life if fixing them doesn't look worth the effort, and don't get distracted by projects that would help people but only a small amount).

Some of what you're talking about here - the idea of giving flamethrowers to children - sounds similar to the idea of existential risk, though on a smaller scale. If you don't already know if it, you may find it relevant.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perspective of the vast majority has no slightest bearing on what is or is not true. You imply either that scientists are angels, or that every particle physicist is a member of a world-girdling conspiracy, which exists as a sort of caucus which decides, presumably by some highly precise and objective method, what every member shall or shall not do. Neither is even remotely plausible. Try again, please.

I simply imply that people are responsible for their actions. People were given the knowledge to make nuclear weapons by those smarter than them. The fact that others may very well have eventually given them the same is neither here nor there, and your weird obsession with requiring it be angels and aliens does nothing to alter that. If you assume many groups of aliens, each species of which might have given out nuke…

And you aren't?

The point of involving angels and aliens is to make clear the absurdity of assuming some superhuman agency which handed down the knowledge from on high. Scientists are human beings, too, with all the fallibility and lack of prescience that is our common heritage, and the fact that "others may very well have eventually given them the same" is the very crux of the matter at hand.

From our perspective, with the benefit of hindsight, it is trivially obvious that the Third Reich made no significant process toward the attainment of nuclear weapons, and that such weapons were not necessary to guarantee the Allies a victory in Europe. Do you think that was trivially obvious in 1942? It was nothing of the sort, and for all those who worked on the Manhattan Project could know, their efforts were absolutely vital to their nation's successful prosecution of the war. In such circumstances, what you would no doubt consider a principled refusal to participate in the project would, in fact, constitute moral cowardice of the highest order, on the part of anyone who found Allied victory in any sense preferable to Axis. They could not have known, after all, that the Third Reich had no realistic hope of developing an atom bomb, given the time and resources available to them, and judging them on the basis of what we know now, seventy years after the Third Reich's abject defeat and dissolution, is purely foolish.

All of this goes to demonstrate your basic error, which is to consider "scientists" a single, unified category which can, or can be expected to, act as a whole in whatever it believes, again as a whole, to be the best interests of mankind. This produces a sort of "us and them" mentality, which implicitly elevates your "scientists" category to the level of the superhuman actors whose existence my "angels or aliens" formulation makes explicit. It is this mentality which permits you to expect knowledge and behavior of scientists which you do not expect of humans, and it is precisely this mistake the original author makes.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#70

WTF is moral progress? How do you measure morality and put it on a graph? What the fuck is this guy even talking about? Am I the only idiot that doesn't understand? How does this get voted to the front page?

> WTF is moral progress? How do you measure morality and put it on a graph? What the fuck is this guy even talking about?

I'm sure you could begin to answer this if you tried harder. Global decrease in violence would be a good start at a proxy to measure, see e.g. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405311190410670...

A more subtle example involves measuring the "expanding circle" -- the degree with which we're willing to empathize with people who are not like us. We've made clear recent advances towards showing empathy and consideration for e.g. black people, women, gay people, in relative recency in human history.

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