Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

blog.joellehman.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 79 posts

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#21

Post by jal278 »

Udo wrote: post #14

It is not a matter of morality. Suppose you have 100 billion robots, each programmed not to press a world-ending button. Some of them will press the button. It's a matter of statistics and the moral framework of the other robots doesn't even enter into the equation. That's exactly the situation we're in. Moral progress has always trailed behind our capabilities, and if I may say something heretical here, maybe it's a…

Although I am not advocating a technological slowdown (nor do I think one is even possible) -- I think a wiser people would inhibit technology "until we're ready." If the result of technological growth vastly outpacing our ability to responsibly handle its power is extinction, then it is easier to make an argument for the morality in technological caution.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#23

Post by Udo »

jal278 wrote: post #21
Udo wrote: post #14

It is not a matter of morality. Suppose you have 100 billion robots, each programmed not to press a world-ending button. Some of them will press the button. It's a matter of statistics and the moral framework of the other robots doesn't even enter into the equation. That's exactly the situation we're in. Moral progress has always trailed behind our capabilities, and if I may say something heretical here, maybe it's a…

Although I am not advocating a technological slowdown (nor do I think one is even possible) -- I think a wiser people would inhibit technology "until we're ready." If the result of technological growth vastly outpacing our ability to responsibly handle its power is extinction, then it is easier to make an argument for the morality in technological caution.

I'm not sure you read my comment (I admit it's quite long), but I'm trying to make the point that "until we're ready" is malicious crap that doesn't solve anything. To begin with, the potential for abuse is insanely high. I also made the point that by rights we're not even ready for knives yet, and statistically we'll never be. Even if "wiser people" existed to benevolently keep us at a level somewhere between animal and higher life form for what seems an indefinite time, even then this idea offers only downsides and not a hint of actual protection against the things it's supposed to slow down.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#24

Post by maroonblazer »

jal278 wrote: post #17
jerf wrote: post #5

I think this is a very interesting question, but there's a pretty strong tendency in the human psyche to assume that the answer is more or less to replicate $MY_CLAIMED_MORALITY out to the rest of humanity, which this essay does nothing to avoid. ($MY_CLAIMED_MORALITY stands in contrast to $MY_ACTION_MORALITY, i.e., how one behaves, which this essay does discuss there being a difference in, to its credit.) Fiddling w…

I agree completely that this is a delicate issue; my main hope is to raise some awareness that the disconnect between technological progress and progress in morality/ethics deserves greater research focus. I am not in favor of blindly imposing anyone's particular and likely flawed understanding of morality universally, but that this could be an urgent issue for our species' survival.

1) At the risk of seeming trite, I liken this to your typical change management program. That is, simply rolling out a new tool across the organization and expecting people to use it in accord with the the vision it was conceived is unrealistic. People need to be educated and, depending on the circumstances, given incentives for using the new tool. Ask anyone who's been involved in one of these projects on a large scale and they'll tell you it often takes longer to realize the behavior change than it takes to develop the tool.

2) The field of moral psychology tackles these very types of problems, by, among other things, surfacing our moral contradictions and forcing us to consider why seemingly equivalent moral outcomes are not considered so (take the Trolley Problem as one, now nearly cliched, example). i.e. I think there's more work being done in this domain than perhaps the author gives credit. That said, I don't disagree that more could be done.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#25

Post by maroonblazer »

jal278 wrote: post #21
Udo wrote: post #14

It is not a matter of morality. Suppose you have 100 billion robots, each programmed not to press a world-ending button. Some of them will press the button. It's a matter of statistics and the moral framework of the other robots doesn't even enter into the equation. That's exactly the situation we're in. Moral progress has always trailed behind our capabilities, and if I may say something heretical here, maybe it's a…

Although I am not advocating a technological slowdown (nor do I think one is even possible) -- I think a wiser people would inhibit technology "until we're ready." If the result of technological growth vastly outpacing our ability to responsibly handle its power is extinction, then it is easier to make an argument for the morality in technological caution.

Inhibiting technology isn't realistic. It's equivalent to asking people to "stop asking questions." It will never happen.

Further, we should be less concerned about the 'selfish' individual who acquires a nuclear weapon than about the sociopath or psychopath who acquires the same. No amount of "moral innovation" will help that person. Indeed, only our ability to diagnose and treat such pathology - both realized only by technology - will save us.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#26

Post by mynameishere »

jchung wrote: post #13

Highly speculative. Nothing concrete proposed.

Seriously. It's a known issue, almost a cliche, and has been for a while. If somebody had some suggestions, they'd get to the point quickly. Let me re-write it with some (bad) ideas:

------------------------------------------------------

Humans evolved with sticks and stones, and their resulting evolved sense of morality cannot be trusted with guns and bombs and nuclear weapons, etc. Therefore I propose the following.

First, as stopgap measures:

1. Putting female hormones in the world's water supply.

2. Decommissioning all nuclear power plants and all machinery capable of refining uranium.

3. Placing every military under the direct control of the United Nations.

Second, as an eventual permanent solution:

1. Neutering all violent criminals on their first offense, as well as all past violent offenders. Neutering all other criminals who have been identified as having antisocial personality disorder. Since this will be required in all countries, the authority to do this will be placed with the United Nations.

2. An unlimited budget will be allotted for the purpose of researching and enacting a method for mining the entire planet's reserve of uranium and rendering it inoperable or unobtainable.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#27

Post by rejschaap »

This letter manages to rub me the wrong way three times before it even begins.

First the title, why is this addressed to Bill and Melinda Gates? What they spend their money and (more important) their time and energy on is wholly their own business. I'm of the opinion that their work is most admirable and important.

Second the graph is comparing magnitude of morality with magnitude of technological progress over time, which just doesn't make any sense. The term 'morality apocalypse' is equally ridiculous and over-the-top, I was half expecting to find the term 'war on immorality' somewhere in the letter, which would have been quite ironic.

Finally the TLDR seems to suggest we ought to stop or slow down technological progress because 'we can't handle it' which might be the most immoral thing to do, seeing how many people's lifes have been saved by advances in technology and medicine. Instead of holding back progress on the technology front (which is futile anyway) we might do better increasing morality by simply educating people (probably making use of technology). Explain to the toddler what the consequences of using the flamethrower are, it is not impossible.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#28

Post by captainmuon »

I think it is not so much a question about morality, but about our societal structures.

In the past few centuries, human history has been driven by technological advances. But the major defining development of the 21 century will not be technological, but social. Society will either radically change for the better, or for the worse.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#29

Post by jotm »

Not exactly morality and not exactly an apocalypse, IMO. It seems that our brains can't keep up with our technology - for example, 200 years ago, one person could realistically learn the workings of most of existing technologies - nowadays, it's literally impossible even if you specialize.

You need to work in large groups, yet living as individuals, it's hard to keep track of what you create.

And that's the problem - maybe the Gates foundation could invest in mapping the brain and figuring out how to improve it.

Once we're smart enough to understand more of the implications of our technologies and ways of life, morality will be easy to fix.

Re: The Morality Apocalypse: An Open Letter to Bill and Melinda Gates

#30

Post by FrankenPC »

I understand the sentiment. What I don't think a lot of people understand is that people like the Gates have probably gone over all this at least in their minds. And they've come to the same conclusion everyone else has: we have to evolve out of it. Unfortunately, evolution is a terribly inefficient way to deal with the problem. Maybe genetic engineering to remove the lizard brain from the next generation of humans might work.
Post reply on HN