'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?' • Hacker News Board

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#71

Post by nknighthb » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:10 PM UTC

Casseres wrote: post #66

MichaelSalib wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. My father in law was denied an ID when he moved to a different state. He is a US citizen of Pakistani origin, and the DMV staff refused to issue him a drivers' license because they were convinced that the was not a US citizen. He showed them his US passport. They claimed it was fake. He showed them his drivers license from his home state. They rejected it. He showed them his veterans card identifying him as a…

It sounds like the DMV staff you encountered were bigots. I would report them. Get the local media involved. Offer to wait while they call the police since having a fake passport is a crime.

Report them? To whom? Follow the chain up and you're likely to find a Republican governor and legislature who think the DMV staff were doing exactly what they were supposed to.

If the local media even covered it, I'd expect their angle to be the suspicious brown guy who was prevented from infiltrating our political system by heroic DMV staff.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#72

Post by jack-r-abbit » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:13 PM UTC

nknighthb wrote: post #45

lifeformed wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

No, millions do not. And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Even where IDs can be gotten "free", the states with voter ID requirements are also the states likely to demand proof of identity and citizenship that are difficult…

> And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address).

Don't we all have to contend with those things? Do minorities and the poor get some sort of free pass on these sorts of obligations?

EDIT: added the parent's parenthetical comment since they felt it was important. I don't want to come off as misquoting or quoting out of context.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#73

Post by nknighthb » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:13 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #70

naner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they already have IDs? No. For most people in the US if you don't have a car you don't have a govt ID. http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-law... those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Ameri…

"Don't have one" and "can't get one" are two entirely different things. How many of them don't have one simply because they have not needed one before and will just go get one (like most people) now that they'll have a need for one? As a fairly poor college student without a car in a new state (Arizona), I managed to locate a bus schedule and a DMV and make my way to the DMV and get a state ID. And I did it without i…

http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm

California is not the US.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#74

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:13 PM UTC

buckbova wrote: post #9

mschuster91 wrote: post #2

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick: 1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF) or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

I was given a national ID card, it's call a social security card. That is my unique identifying number as an American.

SSN weren't designed as unique identifying numbers - in fact, until 1972 the cards explicitly said it should not be used as such. It is also way too short to be unique ID within imaginable timeframe. The fact that it is used as such is because americans have no choice - no other common ID to use. Some use name + birthdate instead, but that's even worse.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#75

Post by mschuster91 » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:16 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #17

mschuster91 wrote: post #2

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick: 1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF) or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

An electricity bill /and/ being registered in your district. It is not like you can take an electricity bill to any poll location and vote. 20 Euros might not seem like much but if you are making minimum wage it can be significant. And what if you lose your ID? Or you don't have access to the documentation to get an ID right away? Or you are a college student and your residence is with your parents? The fact is that…

You need those 20€ only every four to eight years IIRC, and as said you can always apply for assistance if you're earning minimum wage.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#76

Post by mschuster91 » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:16 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #28

mschuster91 wrote: post #2

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick: 1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF) or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

Not being required to have an ID card is something we Americans find to be an important freedom. Many (myself included) feel that requiring people to have an ID card is a slippery slope towards requiring people to show that ID card on demand. The idea of an authority figure being able to 'ask for your papers' is a scary one for us. As the article said, voter fraud is NOT really a problem. No one has ever been able to…

I consider the claims of fraud on George W. Bush's elections made by Michael Moore to be pretty sufficient...

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#77

Post by buckbova » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:16 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #74

buckbova wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was given a national ID card, it's call a social security card. That is my unique identifying number as an American.

SSN weren't designed as unique identifying numbers - in fact, until 1972 the cards explicitly said it should not be used as such. It is also way too short to be unique ID within imaginable timeframe. The fact that it is used as such is because americans have no choice - no other common ID to use. Some use name + birthdate instead, but that's even worse.

Add another few digits and we're good, kinda like ipv6.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#78

Post by nknighthb » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:17 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #72

nknighthb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, millions do not. And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Even where IDs can be gotten "free", the states with voter ID requirements are also the states likely to demand proof of identity and citizenship that are difficult…

> And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Don't we all have to contend with those things? Do minorities and the poor get some sort of free pass on these sorts of obligations? EDIT: added the parent's parenthetical comment sinc…

Clever, cutting off the parenthetical. Also clever attempting to derail. Actually, no, pretty pathetic attempt at derailing.

Absolutely no one should be subject to these requirements, poor, minority, white, or rich. The fact that they disenfranchise some people is one of the reasons why.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#79

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:17 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #68

djur wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am claiming is that the current batch of voter ID schemes are part of an organized vote suppression effort by the American right wing under the pretense of preventing fraud. I would be willing to believe that the programs were being adopted in good faith if there was any evidence of widespread voter fraud and if the programs included aggressive efforts to ensure that every eligible voter has access to a free I…

There's no evidence of widespread terror campaign in US airport and yet TSA grabs my balls each time I fly, and NSA collects my phone calls. There's no evidence of widespread harm from drugs like marijuana and yet thousands of people are jailed for mere possession of it. There's no evidence of gun bans be effective measure of crime control and yet cities like Chicago and Washington insist on it. There's no evidence R…

> There's no evidence of widespread terror campaign in US airport and yet TSA grabs my balls each time I fly, and NSA collects my phone calls.

[...]

> If you really want to go into "show me the data before you make the law", you're waking up way too late.

Campaigns for voter ID laws -- and the opposition to them -- are older than the NSA warrantless surveillance programs or the TSA. Not to mention that the opponents of all three of those things have substantial overlap, so saying that people who oppose one of them have categorically "woken up to late" because the other ones exist (no matter which one you pick) doesn't make a lot of sense, since its not unlikely that the people you are criticizing as late to wake up are also already opponents of whichever the "earlier" outrage is that you are pointing to to make that claim.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#80

Post by Tomte » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 11:21 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #28

mschuster91 wrote: post #2

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick: 1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF) or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

Not being required to have an ID card is something we Americans find to be an important freedom. Many (myself included) feel that requiring people to have an ID card is a slippery slope towards requiring people to show that ID card on demand. The idea of an authority figure being able to 'ask for your papers' is a scary one for us. As the article said, voter fraud is NOT really a problem. No one has ever been able to…

I think it's important to regularly point these issues out, because even though many of "us" intellectually know about them, it's still hard to emotionally grasp for "us", how ID cards could be a slippery slope, why freedom of speech should trump everything else, no matter what, or why home schooling should be allowed at all.

Cultures differ wildly, and it's hard to really accept that the other guy might have a valid point of view.