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'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#41

Post by lifeformed »

nknighthb wrote: post #34
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#42

Post by raganwald »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #23
dragonwriter wrote: post #3

Citing the War on (selected) Drugs to justify the War on Democracy! Yay!

If that doesn't appease you, how about... Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account. Many, many things in life require photo ID. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account.

Many, many things in life require having money. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#43

Post by djur »

lifeformed wrote: post #41
nknighthb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

Not necessarily. If they don't drive or travel there's no reason for them to have state IDs, especially in rural areas.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#44

Post by dragonwriter »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #23
dragonwriter wrote: post #3

Citing the War on (selected) Drugs to justify the War on Democracy! Yay!

If that doesn't appease you, how about... Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account. Many, many things in life require photo ID. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

> Many, many things in life require photo ID.

None of those things are fundamental rights of citizenship like voting.

> It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

It is, poll tax issue aside, a method which presumes ineligibility and puts the burden on the citizen to prove their eligibility (which most state ID schemes, given their documentation requirements, would be as voting prerequisites even if the costs were waived.)

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#45

Post by nknighthb »

lifeformed wrote: post #41
nknighthb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

No, millions do not. And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address).

Even where IDs can be gotten "free", the states with voter ID requirements are also the states likely to demand proof of identity and citizenship that are difficult or impossible for many citizens to meet.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#46

Post by tptacek »

Agathos wrote: post #15

If I ever lose the right to buy cough syrup, I might win it back by voting. If I ever lose the right to vote, can I win it back by buying cough syrup?

This might sound glib, but it is a big part of the kernel of Constitutional scholarship; Ely's _Democracy and Distrust_ goes into detail about substantive versus procedural due process and how the core of the effort is to "preserve the channels of democracy". In other words, Constitutional Law's most important job is to be a referee, to ensure that the political process isn't abused to lock groups of people out and, in doing so, to preserve injustices.

Restrictions that obstruct the channels of democracy should have an especially high burden of necessity to clear.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#47

Post by smsm42 »

djur wrote: post #27
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

Would it be fair to conclude that any setup that requires ID is a suppression scheme? I.e., if ID is required for travel - is it a travel rights suppression scheme? If the ID is required for real estate ownership - that is a real estate ownership suppression scheme? If the ID is required to own a firearm - is it a firearm ownership suppression scheme?

Note I'm not asking if IDs were used in the past to suppress votes - I'm sure there were cases where that happened. What you're claiming is that ID requirement and voter suppression is the same, which is much stronger claim. So what I am asking is this ID requirement that makes it suppression or how one can distinguish suppression ones from non-suppression ones?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#48

Post by dingaling »

djur wrote: post #27
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

> not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them

In Northern Ireland, a country which traditionally suffered from electoral 'problems', people without ID can now apply for a free Electoral Identity Card as part of the electoral registration process.

A photo is required, but if applying in person then no other identity documents are required to obtain it.

It is useful in that it also gives them a first-step ID to open bank accounts and for domestic travel.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#49

Post by MichaelSalib »

Casseres wrote: post #38
MichaelSalib wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say I show up at the polling place and try to vote in someone else's name. If they've already voted, then I'm in deep trouble. In fact, my polling place often has a police officer hanging out on election day. If they haven't voted but come to vote after me, they're in deep trouble. Either way, there's going to be a big stink and a police report. Moreover, I can't vote more than once in the same precinct: I need…

Every place I've been to vote, the election workers had a printed list of people who could vote and would highlight their names once they voted. It's in plain view and it would be easy to read the names and find one to use while waiting in line to get your ballet.

Sure, you could maybe read a name...and then you have to show up later in front of the same election worker who checked you in earlier. Don't you think they'd recognize you?

When I vote, I have to make eye contact and speak with four different poll workers. The odds that I could vote several times without any of them noticing are very low. The odds that a bunch of people could each vote many times over without any of the poll workers noticing are zero.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#50

Post by Jtsummers »

djur wrote: post #27
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

> not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them.

Not all eligible voters have IDs that satisfy the new rules. We always had to identify ourselves. My first vote was cast without a driver's license and I used (IIRC) some documents (school registration, student ID, birth certificate, not sure the combination) that satisfied the requirements at the time. I may have used my military dependent ID (a federal gov't issued photo ID). The majority of my classmates probably had driver's licenses, but there was a significant minority in the same boat I was.

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