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'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#51

Post by nknighthb »

smsm42 wrote: post #47
djur wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

Would it be fair to conclude that any setup that requires ID is a suppression scheme? I.e., if ID is required for travel - is it a travel rights suppression scheme? If the ID is required for real estate ownership - that is a real estate ownership suppression scheme? If the ID is required to own a firearm - is it a firearm ownership suppression scheme? Note I'm not asking if IDs were used in the past to suppress votes…

The set of people who do not have and/or will have trouble getting IDs has little if any overlap with the set of people who travel by air, purchase real estate, or lawfully purchase firearms.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#52

Post by smsm42 »

Agathos wrote: post #15

If I ever lose the right to buy cough syrup, I might win it back by voting. If I ever lose the right to vote, can I win it back by buying cough syrup?

Americans lost rights to buy marijuana in 1937. Winning it back by voting turned out not that easy in next 70 or so years.

And, btw, if you try to still use you right to own marijuana, you become a felon, which - surprise! - means you lose rights to vote. See how nicely it works out?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#53

Post by Jtsummers »

lifeformed wrote: post #41
nknighthb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

They may not have photo IDs that satisfy the new rules. If you don't drive, then until recently you likely didn't have a gov't issued photo ID. Perhaps a school or work issued ID, but that isn't sufficient. You used to be able to present things like lease/electric bill to show residence + birth certificate to show citizenship.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#54

Post by naner »

lifeformed wrote: post #41
nknighthb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

Don't they already have IDs?

No. For most people in the US if you don't have a car you don't have a govt ID.

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-law...

those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don't have picture IDs.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

djur wrote: post #33
rlanday wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the most common type of fraud that occurs is voting by people who are not eligible to do so (e.g., because they’re not US citizens). I don’t know on what scale this occurs, but I believe there have been documented instances. A lot of it is probably politically motivated (trying to make it easier vs. harder for lower-income, likely Democratic, voters to register), but the fear of a small number of non-citizens…

That isn't fixed by voter ID schemes, though. For an ineligible person to register to vote is voter registration fraud, and you do have to prove your eligibility to register. Voter ID schemes only prevent people voting under other voters' names, and that kind of fraud appears to be extremely rare.

> For an ineligible person to register to vote is voter registration fraud, and you do have to prove your eligibility to register.

For fairly weak (and appropriately so) definitions of prove, in most cases. It would be more accurate in most jurisdictions, AFAIK, to say you must assert a set of facts which, if true, would make you eligible to vote in order to register.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#56

Post by djur »

smsm42 wrote: post #47
djur wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

Would it be fair to conclude that any setup that requires ID is a suppression scheme? I.e., if ID is required for travel - is it a travel rights suppression scheme? If the ID is required for real estate ownership - that is a real estate ownership suppression scheme? If the ID is required to own a firearm - is it a firearm ownership suppression scheme? Note I'm not asking if IDs were used in the past to suppress votes…

What I am claiming is that the current batch of voter ID schemes are part of an organized vote suppression effort by the American right wing under the pretense of preventing fraud.

I would be willing to believe that the programs were being adopted in good faith if there was any evidence of widespread voter fraud and if the programs included aggressive efforts to ensure that every eligible voter has access to a free ID.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#57

Post by smsm42 »

nknighthb wrote: post #51
smsm42 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be fair to conclude that any setup that requires ID is a suppression scheme? I.e., if ID is required for travel - is it a travel rights suppression scheme? If the ID is required for real estate ownership - that is a real estate ownership suppression scheme? If the ID is required to own a firearm - is it a firearm ownership suppression scheme? Note I'm not asking if IDs were used in the past to suppress votes…

The set of people who do not have and/or will have trouble getting IDs has little if any overlap with the set of people who travel by air, purchase real estate, or lawfully purchase firearms.

I wasn't asking about which sets of people overlap or not. I was asking what makes ID requirement be identical with suppression - is it ID requirement itself or something else? If it is something else - what exactly it is? Is it where set of people is relevant - it is OK to ask some people to show the papers but not the others? Which people should be exempt and which should not be?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#58

Post by meej »

viggity wrote: post #16
mschuster91 wrote: post #2

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick: 1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF) or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

IIRC, most states that have instituted voter id laws have made the cost of an ID free. Also, expired drivers licenses work as identification (for the elderly who have ceased driving).

Even if an ID is free, the documentation required to obtain one may not be free (like a registered birth certificate, for example).

Expired licenses do not work as ID under Texas' new ID law. There was a particularly egregious example of this earlier this year: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/11/03/former-u-s-house-speaker-...

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#59

Post by MichaelSalib »

nknighthb wrote: post #40
spindritf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them. I have just googled it and, apparently, it's a constitutional requirement to issue IDs at no cost if they're required to vote. Arkansas for example is waiting with the implementation of their voting ID law precisely for that reason. The new law won't take effect until January or when funding is available for…

I invite you to try and get one of those free IDs, which are often accompanied by a demand for documentation that, again, the underprivileged are likely to have trouble getting, if it even exists. This is assuming the DMV office doesn't play dumb and deny any knowledge of their obligations. There is a distinction between constitutional requirements and what happens in practice. I don't know where you're from, maybe t…

Indeed.

My father in law was denied an ID when he moved to a different state. He is a US citizen of Pakistani origin, and the DMV staff refused to issue him a drivers' license because they were convinced that the was not a US citizen. He showed them his US passport. They claimed it was fake. He showed them his drivers license from his home state. They rejected it. He showed them his veterans card identifying him as a retired US Air Force officer. They laughed.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#60

Post by Jtsummers »

smsm42 wrote: post #52
Agathos wrote: post #15

If I ever lose the right to buy cough syrup, I might win it back by voting. If I ever lose the right to vote, can I win it back by buying cough syrup?

Americans lost rights to buy marijuana in 1937. Winning it back by voting turned out not that easy in next 70 or so years. And, btw, if you try to still use you right to own marijuana, you become a felon, which - surprise! - means you lose rights to vote. See how nicely it works out?

> you become a felon, which - surprise! - means you lose rights to vote

Fortunately not in all states. Some allow you to vote, some allow you to vote after you're released or your sentence (including probation or just incarceration) is complete. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement#Unite...

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