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Girls Who Code

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Re: Girls Who Code

#361

Post by [deleted] »

parennoob wrote: post #360
sophacles wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Show me the equivalent of initiatives like "Rails Girls" or "Girls Who Code", or "Github's free private repos for women" for male teachers or nurses. A halfhearted list of platitudes from a Dean at ASU and an NYTimes article != actual effort. Look at the list of sponsors on this page. http://www.girlswhocode.com/about-us/ and show me something even remotely equivalent for nursing, or fashion. Well googling for "prog…

> Both of which show some good sponsorship. Heck, on the first page, under "resources" there is mention of a magazine called "male nurse magazine" You are either not serious, or seriously blinkered. What, two links that go to the same "American Assembly for Men in Nursing" association, a magazine for male nurses and a link to some history are equivalent to sponsorship from some of the biggest and most popular softwar…

[deleted]

Re: Girls Who Code

#362

Post by jmagoon »

mistermann wrote: post #253
jmagoon wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence to back up your broad-brushed claims? And who are these "feminist activist" strawmen(straw-women?) you have set up?

I think part of the reason these discussions never get anywhere is because of blatant dishonesty in discussions. You actually think there is no "feminist activist" movement?

I don't, and I never made that claim because it's insane. I object to the idea that "feminist activists" "didn't push to get more women into tech until tech was a higher paying, lower risk endeavor."

There's a claim "women are more risk averse", and another claim "feminist activists exist", both of which are feasibly true, that do not lead to general conclusion that "feminist activists did not push to get more women into tech until it was a higher paying, lower risk endeavor". Which is a broad, unsupported argument, for which the data directly contradicts:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput...

Re: Girls Who Code

#363

Post by lauradhamilton »

I don't understand all this excitement about the magical age of 13. Personally, I've never stopped learning--whether it's analytics, business, software development, or machine learning.

I don't think it's any harder for me to learn stuff now at 28 than it was when I was 13. If anything, it's easier, because I have a much wider baseline of knowledge that I can use to reference things. For example, I learned set theory in high school => I can apply that to relational databases today.

I do know some people, both men and women, that sort of stopped learning new stuff in their twenties, and now they're pretty much stuck. They can't keep up with technology changes (e.g., how does the router work) and they don't have a good baseline for learning new stuff. Nor the will.

Re: Girls Who Code

#364

Post by jsmthrowaway »

philwelch wrote: post #348
theorique wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so the PlayHaven guy got fired. Adria had death threats made against her, was the subject of a beheading picture, had her home address and phone number publicized, her employer was DDOSed, and she was ultimately fired, like the PlayHaven guy. Neither one is acceptable. The mob action is obviously worse , but both punishments were wrong. What should have happened (wishful thinking I know) is that AR could have t…

This kind of thinking is anathema to SJW ideology. Example: https://twitter.com/eassumption/status/416999484581625856

The one tweet in there about private conversations enabling power dynamics is interesting. jdunck told me via email that he refuses to even discuss this stuff privately because I have to own up to my comment publicly, which really confused the hell out of me. But now it makes more sense.

I was also ready to just accept it as SJWs wanting help in a group from someone who calls them on their bullshit. Probably a little of column A, little of column B.

Re: Girls Who Code

#365

Post by nostrademons »

rada wrote: post #359
theorique wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some possibilities: - The implication, stated or not (usually not), is that some people (i.e. white men) hold their jobs in tech because they took a position that rightfully should have gone to a more qualified person of a different group (i.e. woman / racial minority). With the attendant implication that they aren't actually competent and that they only got their position through in-group affiliation. - Men (white o…

The implication, stated or not (usually not)... You missed the parent's point so entirely, it's as if you are an MRA bot posting the same old scripted comments no matter what actual discussion is taking place. He said that we could "have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject of guilt" and that we don't need to "frame the whole thing in terms of accusations" and your immediate k…

Theorique - to my eye, at least - was responding in kind to the academic arguments presented by lkrubner. He presents three possible explanations for the effect that lkrubner discusses. Nowhere in there is a value judgment, only three hypotheses.

A good rule of thumb for when a conversation has become personal and emotions are getting involved is when the word "You" comes up. Conversations that stay on a strictly academic level talk about the ideas involved, not the people who espouse those ideas.

Re: Girls Who Code

#366

Post by codahale »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #299
codahale wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching you clutch your pearls is fucking hilarious, so I've set up a weekly donation of a fair chunk of change to Shanley's Gittip account. Keep up the good work.

Unlike most folks, I know who you are (I am not far removed from your social circle from prior employment) and you'll have to try that on someone else. I would encourage you to formulate a substantive point, for once, and seek a rational discussion on this with me but I know from experience that's not Coda Hale Style. Last year I donated more than your annual contribution to Shanley's Gittip on causes for hunger and…

I'm happy to hear you're donating to charity, but you're missing out on a great opportunity to reduce your taxable income and save for retirement. The 2013 contribution limit is $17,500, and most financial planners would be aghast at a well-paid professional like yourself not taking such an easy step to lower your tax liability. The good news is that if you max out your contribution either today or tomorrow, you'll still make the 2013 contribution deadline.

Say hey to the folks we both know for me when you see them.

Re: Girls Who Code

#367

Post by hyperpape »

berrypicker wrote: post #354
hyperpape wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Unless there is reason to believe that the skills involved in doing a good job are widely different between genders, it represents a waste of human talent. 2) Unless there is reason to believe that interest in the job is widely different between genders (and that this difference either causes no unhappiness/difference in social status, or is completely unavoidable) it represents a loss of potential happiness. This…

Adding "This isn't rocket science" or equivalent at the end of a post doesn't make you right by the way, it does make you sound arrogant though. There are reasons to believe that skill and interest in genders vary, the premise of both of your arguments is weak, but I'll reply as though it was valid. > 1) Unless there is reason to believe that the skills involved in doing a good job are widely different between gender…

Say our model is that talent is a bell curve, with equal distribution among the genders, and that our (simplistic) goal is to maximize the talent available for a given profession. Then we expect 50% men, 50% women. Isn't that obvious?

> In our current society there is little pressure from anyone to avoid career paths that don't fit the gender role.

Tell that to a male nurse.

I guess I'm being arrogant, but you're being willfully blind. It may turn out that it just happens that men prefer some jobs. But given that the gender expectations that we have change over time (http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-...), it deserves extra scrutiny, rather than the assumption that it is natural.

Re: Girls Who Code

#368

Post by esperluette »

parennoob wrote: post #277
esperluette wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. The OP was trying to imply that women are naturally worse at the competitions cited, and I pointed out that women in the age demographic that wins those competitions (usually men 20-50) have less free time than the men. And ... many women don't "want" to do more housework/chores, but feel they have to do it, because if their house is dirty or their kids don't have clean clothes/snacks for the soccer game, etc…

Uh, yes. The OP was correct in saying that men are better (he didn't say anything about naturally) at the competitions cited. And...many men don't want to do chess, coding, or Go competitions, but feel they have to do it, because it is often way of getting any recognition from society, which usually reserves it for actors and football players. Women often get a free pass on account of their looks -- people are natura…

I don't think you have been paying attention, or maybe you are hanging out in the wrong places. Have you read "Lean In"?

There are plenty of women out there who don't expect their husbands to be the main breadwinner. Go hang out with med students or lawyers. There are lots of women who would LOVE to be able to concentrate on their careers and have their spouse at home with the kids and making dinner. If "traditional society" is expecting you to do X, go find a "nontraditional society"!

Are you doing PUA techniques at bars as a way to meet women? Then yeah, you are competing on looks and wealth. Are you treating women like people and getting to know them as friends?

You might want to look into CBT, because your comments sound like you have some negative thought patterns that you might want to combat. Thinking that everyone is going to treat you rudely or consider you a creep is a great way to act in defensive ways that ... make people treat you rudely and consider you a creep. :-(

Re: Girls Who Code

#369

Post by theorique »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #364
philwelch wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of thinking is anathema to SJW ideology. Example: https://twitter.com/eassumption/status/416999484581625856

The one tweet in there about private conversations enabling power dynamics is interesting. jdunck told me via email that he refuses to even discuss this stuff privately because I have to own up to my comment publicly, which really confused the hell out of me. But now it makes more sense. I was also ready to just accept it as SJWs wanting help in a group from someone who calls them on their bullshit. Probably a little…

private conversations enabling power dynamics

Public conversations also enable power dynamics.

They just enable power dynamics of a different sort - mobbing, pile-ons, and other forms of collective shaming.

Re: Girls Who Code

#370

Post by Sssnake »

jdunck wrote: post #283
Sssnake wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are not well represented in computer software Are they "well represented" in any skilled trade? Why is this one specific skilled trade such a unique cause for concern and inventing crazy reasons to blame the people in the trade?

Because software is eating the world. Because entrepreneurship creates jobs. Because software is the new means of production. Because people different than you have problems which are different than yours. Because dog-fooding is a great way to make something people want. Lots more reasons, but chew on those.

Only 1 and 3 are relevant, and I don't believe either of them are true. The rest of those apply equally to all sorts of other skilled trades.
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