Girls Who Code • Hacker News Board

Re: Girls Who Code

#351

Post by Tycho » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 5:36 PM UTC

hythloday wrote: post #225

Tycho wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if anything your own example seems to reaffirm pg's point. You fished a computer out of a garbage bin and therefore had some coding experience before university age. You found it on your own. PG observes that this is 'invariably' a quality of the most successful founders and therefore (presumably) one which he looks for in prospective founders.

If you really believe that, would you be neutral on a law that forbade boys under 18 from using a computer? By your hypothesis the ones who are destined to be successful will circumvent it without penalty.

What you mean like an actual privilege and not just an inconvenience?

Re: Girls Who Code

#352

Post by theorique » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 5:53 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #348

theorique wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so the PlayHaven guy got fired. Adria had death threats made against her, was the subject of a beheading picture, had her home address and phone number publicized, her employer was DDOSed, and she was ultimately fired, like the PlayHaven guy. Neither one is acceptable. The mob action is obviously worse , but both punishments were wrong. What should have happened (wishful thinking I know) is that AR could have t…

This kind of thinking is anathema to SJW ideology. Example: https://twitter.com/eassumption/status/416999484581625856

Interesting.

Jumping to the worst possible conclusion / interpretation of someone's words seems to be a hallmark of this style of 'activism'. Which leads to especially aggressive debates and misunderstandings, especially when people are on Twitter and constrained to <140 characters.

Re: Girls Who Code

#353

Post by ceol » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

Sssnake wrote: post #196

ceol wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself , would do — say that it was all on them…

>What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say Was that intended as a warning for the rest of your post? >It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol Of course it is. And since that does not happen any more frequently in tech than anywhere else, and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men, I have a hard time seeing the relevance. >You may not even realize it, but your comment…

> and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men

You might as well be stating the world isn't round, or the sky isn't blue, or any other plainly obvious fact that has been proven countless times. Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist, and ignore the thousands of women detailing their experiences[1] on the subject, so this isn't really for you. This is for the random reader who might not be as pigheaded and oblivious.

> When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny

Did "imaginary" suddenly change meanings? Because either it did, or your head is so far in the sand, you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4] If you haven't been paying attention to the programming and tech community, you really shouldn't be speaking about it, you know? It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right?

[1]: http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-i...

[2]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052...

[3]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinso...

[4]: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-...

Re: Girls Who Code

#354

Post by berrypicker » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:30 PM UTC

hyperpape wrote: post #342

berrypicker wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they do want more men involved. Why is it so important in modern society that every area has an even split of men and women and the right quota of every ethnicity?

1) Unless there is reason to believe that the skills involved in doing a good job are widely different between genders, it represents a waste of human talent. 2) Unless there is reason to believe that interest in the job is widely different between genders (and that this difference either causes no unhappiness/difference in social status, or is completely unavoidable) it represents a loss of potential happiness. This…

Adding "This isn't rocket science" or equivalent at the end of a post doesn't make you right by the way, it does make you sound arrogant though. There are reasons to believe that skill and interest in genders vary, the premise of both of your arguments is weak, but I'll reply as though it was valid.

> 1) Unless there is reason to believe that the skills involved in doing a good job are widely different between genders, it represents a waste of human talent.

If either gender can be equally skilled at something it doesn't matter if one person is using their skill at nursing and another at coding, the split doesn't have to be the same. All women could do nursing all men could code, where's the waste of talent?

>2) Unless there is reason to believe that interest in the job is widely different between genders (and that this difference either causes no unhappiness/difference in social status, or is completely unavoidable) it represents a loss of potential happiness.

Essentially - "there are women who would be happy if they coded but they don't, so we should encourage more women to code". In our current society there is little pressure from anyone to avoid career paths that don't fit the gender role. You're pushing for equality when it is isn't needed because of "potential happiness" - hey there are men who would enjoy ballet dancing but we don't have enough men doing it so let's spread the word.

Sorry I don't buy any of this equal society crap, let people do what they want.

Re: Girls Who Code

#355

Post by berrypicker » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:37 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #323

berrypicker wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they do want more men involved. Why is it so important in modern society that every area has an even split of men and women and the right quota of every ethnicity?

I personally don't think an even split in every area is the right way to go. But the percentage of men in nursing is in the single digits - far from 'an even split'. There are concrete benefits to having more male nurses - some patients respond better to being handled by a member of a given gender. Same thing with teachers for young children, in that more male teachers means having a broader, better range of role mod…

This is going to sound like an is-therefore-it-ought-to-be fallacious argument but it makes sense to me that there are more female nurses simply because women are better suited to the task and more importantly want to be nurses? I mean there are probably historical reasons for the low number of male nurses and other things to attribute the low ratio to but we didn't sit down one day and force females to be nurses.

Healthcare and educations has way bigger problems than some patients responding better to male nurses. There's a lot of what I consider grasping at straws when it comes to this sort of discussion. Let's start by talking about the curriculum and spending and stuff that has way more of an impact on our society.

Re: Girls Who Code

#356

Post by ceol » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:40 PM UTC

rokhayakebe wrote: post #279

ceol wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself , would do — say that it was all on them…

Ceol. I am Black. I am African. I live in Orange County (3% Black - At best). I am 32. I started to learn how to code at 28. I am still not comfortable walking in a room where everybody is White. I feel like a fraud sometimes, when I tell people I know how to code (in PHP). None of the above stopped me from slinging that code for several hours today. I understand what being a minority is, but quite frankly most of th…

Being black is certainly not the same as being a woman, and just because you didn't experience enough discrimination to push you away doesn't mean others don't. If anything, that feeling of being uncomfortable should make you more sympathetic, but instead, you're stuck in this bootstraps mentality that anyone who couldn't follow through just didn't apply themselves enough or something.

> Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game.

Err, yeah it does. That's exactly what it means. If someone has an advantage over you, you are at a disadvantage. That's what the word "disadvantage" means.

> Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back.

No one is saying you should. That actually has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for work to be segregated; in fact, they're asking for the exact opposite.

> "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in."

Why not both? Why not, "Stop treating me like shit and count mine." This isn't either-or.

Re: Girls Who Code

#357

Post by ceol » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:43 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #267

ceol wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. Except the community , which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource. > A lot of people, male and femal…

The "you're just too sensitive" argument is a valid argument. I don't want to end up publicly shamed for jokes I make in private conversation.

The only way you're going to be shamed is if you really didn't make them in private conversation. Making them as you sit around a bunch of people in the middle of a conference, or in the middle of your office where everyone can hear you, or on your public twitter account is not a private conversation. Just because you directed it to someone does not make it private.

Re: Girls Who Code

#358

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:44 PM UTC

rokhayakebe wrote: post #279

ceol wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself , would do — say that it was all on them…

Ceol. I am Black. I am African. I live in Orange County (3% Black - At best). I am 32. I started to learn how to code at 28. I am still not comfortable walking in a room where everybody is White. I feel like a fraud sometimes, when I tell people I know how to code (in PHP). None of the above stopped me from slinging that code for several hours today. I understand what being a minority is, but quite frankly most of th…

> Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage

Since the kind of advantage/disadvantage we are talking is relative, not absolute, yes, it does.

Re: Girls Who Code

#359

Post by rada » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:49 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #330

lkrubner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that whenever this subject is brought up, someone will eventually introduce the subject of guilt. Can you articulate why you responded in this way? Do you feel that you have been accused of something? What exactly would the metaphorical equivalent of being a "witch" mean in this context? I'll point out that we could have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject o…

Some possibilities: - The implication, stated or not (usually not), is that some people (i.e. white men) hold their jobs in tech because they took a position that rightfully should have gone to a more qualified person of a different group (i.e. woman / racial minority). With the attendant implication that they aren't actually competent and that they only got their position through in-group affiliation. - Men (white o…

The implication, stated or not (usually not)...

You missed the parent's point so entirely, it's as if you are an MRA bot posting the same old scripted comments no matter what actual discussion is taking place. He said that we could "have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject of guilt" and that we don't need to "frame the whole thing in terms of accusations" and your immediate knee-jerk response is to list all these imaginary accusations that are being "implied". Can you just keep an open mind and consider the possibility that, as the parent says, none of these accusations are actually being made? (If you don't find the parent comment convincing enough, perhaps look at your own "not usually stated" qualifier).

Re: Girls Who Code

#360

Post by parennoob » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 7:42 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #335

parennoob wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of initiatives to get more men into nursing and teaching and fashion. Show me the equivalent of initiatives like "Rails Girls" or "Girls Who Code", or "Github's free private repos for women" for male teachers or nurses. A halfhearted list of platitudes from a Dean at ASU and an NYTimes article != actual effort. Look at the list of sponsors on this page. http://www.girlswhocode.com/about-us/ and sho…

>Show me the equivalent of initiatives like "Rails Girls" or "Girls Who Code", or "Github's free private repos for women" for male teachers or nurses. A halfhearted list of platitudes from a Dean at ASU and an NYTimes article != actual effort. Look at the list of sponsors on this page. http://www.girlswhocode.com/about-us/ and show me something even remotely equivalent for nursing, or fashion. Well googling for "prog…

> Both of which show some good sponsorship. Heck, on the first page, under "resources" there is mention of a magazine called "male nurse magazine"

You are either not serious, or seriously blinkered. What, two links that go to the same "American Assembly for Men in Nursing" association, a magazine for male nurses and a link to some history are equivalent to sponsorship from some of the biggest and most popular software employers (Google, Intel, Microsoft)? As I said, show me something visible like Sloan Kettering, or the Harvard Medical School sponsoring male nurses, or offering free courses to them.

> This is poor reasoning. Just because there are initiatives to help one group, and there aren't - for whatever reason - initiatives to help another group, doesn't mean that the initiatives that do exist are a problem. An attempt to solve one problem does not invalidate the other. Nor does the lack of solution to one problem invalidate attempts to solve other problems. It's like this: my software has 2 bugs. I spend a week fixing one bug. My boss doesn't complain that I didn't solve both bugs, but rather praises me for fixing one and says "now fix the other".

No, but if there are two bugs (say A and B), and one of them (say B) is similar to another one that is marked INVALID or WONTFIX, your boss might complain that you're spending a ton of time on B. In this analogy, attracting more low-income men into tech would be the WONTFIX bug, since no one is rushing to fix it. Look at this story (http://www.girlswhocode.com/about-us/#section5). Note that this is a girl who is also more likely to go into college and get a degree (60% of all college graduates are now women). A 15-year low-income male in the same situation? Tough luck, no "Boys who Code", or even "People Who Code" initiative for him.