Live data from Hacker News

Girls Who Code

avc.com

131–140 of 397 posts

Re: Girls Who Code

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about startups and bias is that if you have a multitiered informal hiring process, a little bit of biases can be invisible and can be multiplied over filtering stages. The company may at one stage indeed "let's consider her" but unless the company's overall hiring is formally specified, unless your documenting and so keeping reasonably track of what you are doing, you may not know the way that biases are cr…

"Prove that you're not a witch" is a very old tactic - and it's the opposite of the modern standard of guilt.

It is interesting that whenever this subject is brought up, someone will eventually introduce the subject of guilt. Can you articulate why you responded in this way? Do you feel that you have been accused of something? What exactly would the metaphorical equivalent of being a "witch" mean in this context?

I'll point out that we could have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject of guilt.

This is a bit off-topic but I am fascinated about the exact reasons why some people react to conversations as if they have been accused of something. I think you might want to consider that nothing is useful is gained if you introduce the concept of "guilt" into a conversation where it is not needed.

I'll offer an example that has already been discussed on hundreds of blogs. You may recall in 2007 that John Kenzer interviewed Alex Payne? (I am sorry that the interview seems to be offline: http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twi... but it is in the Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20070416091128/http://www.radical...) and Alex Payne offered some common sense observations about the difficulty of scaling Rails:

"Running on Rails has forced us to deal with scaling issues ... far sooner than I think we would on another framework. Once you hit a certain threshold of traffic, either you need to strip out all the costly neat stuff that Rails does for you ... or move the slow parts of your application out of Rails, or both."

You may recall that David Heinemeier Hansson's response was overheated and irrational. He said that Alex Payne was blaming Rails for all of the problems at Twitter. But Payne had never blamed Rails for anything, he merely talked about how they were struggling to make it scale.

(I am sorry to say that David's response appears to be offline now: http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/arc/000608.html , and the Internet Archive doesn't have it: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://david.heinemeierhansson..... As a side note, let us all mourn how many important conversations get erased off the web.)

Many smart commentators pointed out that there was no need for David Heinemeier Hansson to introduce the concept of blame into that conversation. Alex Payne's words could have simply been taken as a constructive starting point for a larger conversation about how to scale Rails. But for some reason Hansson felt the need to frame the conversation in terms of accusations and guilt.

The same is true about this conversation, and your reaction. We can have a constructive conversation about increasing diversity in hiring without ever introducing the concept of guilt.

And yet, every time this subject comes up, someone feels the need to frame the whole thing in terms of accusations and guilt. The level of defensiveness on display is remarkable.

Re: Girls Who Code

#132
Another article about feminist affirmate action, giving women free rides for shit they don't care about. Affirmative action is discrimination that takes away from qualified folk and gives to people who are incompetent. Why people see AA as acceptable is beyond me.

And why do feminists only want access to clean, easy, well-paying jobs? Why do I never hear them wanting AA for mining jobs? Or picking up trash? Or bricklaying? It's always coding, engineering, company boards, politics, cops (but always waiting for male backup), etc.

Fuck feminism. What this shit is doing is making people like me, who have been coding since before elementary school, extremely bitter. Not for my own sake, for I already have a good IT-job, but for the sake of those quiet kids. The quiet kids who aren't social enough to build large networks of friends who'll help them get IT-jobs. The quiet kids that spend all of their time in front of the computer, learning shit on their own instead of learning what they're taught. The quiet kids that need tons of luck to get a hold of jobs that they're competent for but overlooked from because some dude who is friendly and outgoing makes a far better impression during the interview - no matter their competency level.

I was one of the quiet kids. When I was young there was no sexual discrimination because coding was still nerdy and shitty and not very highly regarded, but now it's different. Now it IS cool to code, and I can't fucking stand to see incompetent, uninterested people getting hired / promoted before those who have higher technical competency. That's discrimination no matter how you look at it.

If girls were equally competent as guys then discrimination would not be necessary because it would be immediately obvious that everybody is competing on the same level, right right right?

Re: Girls Who Code

#133

One fascinating aspect of this is how bad the post 1990 startup culture has been for women. There was something about those big, boring corporations of the 1970s and 1980s that actually gave female hackers more acceptance than what startups have offered. You can see female interest in programming change in the charts on these pages: http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput... Note that those graph…

"As a share of all CS bachelor's degrees granted that year, females had slipped almost 10 points"

This line of reasoning seems to assume that virtually all CS grads go into "post 1990 startup culture" companies. I suspect that nationwide, fresh grads going into startups is a rounding error.

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion, just claiming the facts in support of it are not a good fit.

Something cultural that I could match up to declining female grad rates would be the stockholm syndrome-like popularity of the programming death-march meme, see videogame programmer lifestyle etc. Maybe women are smart enough to avoid that particular form of stupidity and thus avoid the field, but men are too dumb, thus maleness ratio increases.

Re: Girls Who Code

#134
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Did you actually look? http://www.gatewayct.edu/Programs-Courses/Divisions-Departme... http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/man-enough-20-x-20-choo... http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml Likewise the male teachers of younger children.

You're correct. I did not look. And it does make sense that they would exist. Yeah, maybe my original comment was wrong. Maybe my view on this is wrong. I will admit seeing the male nurse initiatives does give me a different perspective on this.

Best comment in this thread.

Re: Girls Who Code

#135
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone was going to be really good at programming they would have found it on their own. Then if you go look at the bios of successful founders this is invariably the case, they were all hacking on computers at age 13. I am by most standards a successful founder. I was not hacking on computers at age 13. Why not? My family could not afford a computer at age 13. I got my first computer at 15-16 by essentially fi…

There doesn't seem to be a gender component in the situation you described.

No, because he's using an example from his own experience to rebut Paul Graham's (partial) explanation of gender imbalance at startups.

Re: Girls Who Code

#136

When I hear about this being a cultural thing, an important aspect people leave out is that men aren't exactly encouraged to be coders either. Writing code has pretty much no social cred until you're out of school, and pretty much automatically gets you tagged as a nerd. No coder I know started coding because it was cool, they just sort of enjoyed it and accepted the social consequences. I'm just going to throw this…

Men do better than women at the Math SAT[1]. The male/female ratio is especially high in the higher Math percentiles, where you would expect your best engineers to come from. The polite way to explain this is some kind of "expectations effect", which is possible, but females do dominate at all other aspects of education. We cannot rule out simple innate ability, combined with higher male interest in abstract things.…

Men do better than women at the Math SAT[1]

I just want to add that this has to do with culture, and, again, what we were exposed to and influenced to have an interest in from childhood.

In high school I can remember the top Science student were all women and they racked more awards than men.

Re: Girls Who Code

#137
post #74

No one seems to talk about where these girls are being pulled from , as if labor shifts don't have two sides. What often seems to happen in initiatives like this is that all the sectors which decide they need higher female participation end up fighting over the same pool of "high-achieving" (high IQ, upper class, family connections) individuals. "We need to shift women from MBA programs into comp sci master's program…

Keep in mind, too, that female unemployment is lower than male unemployment. Your average female in the labor force has more options than your average male.

"eh" The rates looked to be tracking pretty closely until the housing bubble burst:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/womens-unemploy...

Re: Girls Who Code

#138
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this really YC's problem to solve? I think it's up to everyone to do their part. This problem, like all big problems, is made up of lots of little problems.

I don't think there is much they can do. A similar review of Human Resources professionals, also courtesy LinkedIn, shows about 70% are women. In another report, in 2013, 41% of college seniors that elected majors in Physical Science were women. Yet, only 18% of those who chose computer science or engineering were women. It seems they'd be equally capable in chemistry and physics as in computer science and engineer.…

How does your "gender-based difference in interests" explain the last thirty years of (proportional) decline in women majoring in CS?

Re: Girls Who Code

#139

When I hear about this being a cultural thing, an important aspect people leave out is that men aren't exactly encouraged to be coders either. Writing code has pretty much no social cred until you're out of school, and pretty much automatically gets you tagged as a nerd. No coder I know started coding because it was cool, they just sort of enjoyed it and accepted the social consequences. I'm just going to throw this…

Yep, and a series of uncomfortable truths about how things work against men (specially Asian men) who are trying to learn to code: 1. At school and such, no one tries to encourage you to code. People naturally think, "Oh, male and Asian, screw him , the world doesn't need another Asian dude coding. Let's try and teach Rails to that cute girl -- we need more of her kind." 2. People assume you are better at coding, mat…

> Yet no one's complaining

Plenty of people are complaining. You just don't see it because you're surrounding yourself in this little bubble of tech and startups and coding. The least you could have done, if not a simple Google search, was scroll three inches down before you replied: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981113

There are plenty of initiatives to get more men into nursing and teaching and fashion. Even if there weren't, why does that matter? It has nothing to do with this industry's problems. We don't need every other industry to be fixing itself before we do.

That's not even touching on your victim-complex of an argument about men coding. You must be pretty deep in that bubble.

Re: Girls Who Code

#140
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Well, yes, I suppose this is true. If you pick a random woman who cannot code, that is probably the reason. What about the women who have been driven out of coding simply because they happen to be female? It's something I have personally witnessed, both in the education system, and in commercial settings. There are real problems here, problems…

There are real problems here? What are these problems?

Did you even read the article or any of the comments in this thread?
Post reply on HN