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I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

theguardian.com

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Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#201

Post by jaekwon »

dreamfactory wrote: post #10
ck2 wrote: post #4

The feed is so pixelated, what if it's a shovel, and not a weapon? I felt this confusion constantly, as did my fellow UAV analysts. We always wonder if we killed the right people If this question even comes up once, drones should never, ever be armed. Why is is okay to repeatedly kill the wrong person in another country? Can you imagine if that happened even just once in the USA? We need an international ban on armed…

Not to justify any of this business, but why on earth wouldn't they apply 'beyond reasonable doubt' in their own minds when summarily executing somebody in the first place?

The more civilians you kill, the more enemy you make, the more you need the military.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#202

Post by sneak »

avenger123 wrote: post #195
jusben1369 wrote: post #112

We need to make sure we're not being manipulated. Here the Guardian is just serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion. I'm not sure how this is different to much of the chest beating I'd see on Fox News. I'm not here to argue for or against the drones. Just that if we pride ourselves on being educated and critical thinkers that we apply that to all sources of data we read. We all kno…

Thank you so much for reminding me that I should care about not being manipulated. Your comment is so full of really good unbiased views that I just wanted to tell you how much non-manipulated I felt by your comment. I especially enjoyed your notion that the Guardian is "serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion." You are so right. I always fell that the White House and the American…

This sort of attitude is not really constructive discussion, and I personally feel it's out of place here on HN.

So, personally: please don't do that.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#203

Post by fit2rule »

BrandonRead wrote: post #98

Does anybody think there is space for a "CS Students against Weaponry" alliance? I go to Umass Amherst, and there are tons of people who end up working for Raytheon upon graduation. Sure, the 100k / yr is quite tempting when you just came from community college and a retail job just years before, but perhaps some education may stop students from agreeing to internships and careers at Raytheon, etc. It's oftentimes go…

Educational institutions are the battleground for mindshare between the military-industrial and the peace-lovers. Don't ask the question whether you should start a "CS Students against Weaponry" movement or not: just simply do it.

You have to make peace, it doesn't just happen. Same with war, incidentally ..

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#204

Post by melling »

jessaustin wrote: post #187
melling wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean like in Syria where 130,000 people have died? http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/02/us-syria-crisis-to... By some accounts, 1 in 10 killed was a child. Why don't we ever discuss this on HN? Until after the WWII, the US really didn't involve itself in much of the world's conflicts. Our tradition is to pretty much leave the world to fix its own problems. We joined WWI during the last year of the war and…

Would fewer people have died if USA hadn't interfered in Syria to the extent that we have? I.e., no constant media and political coverage, no arming the rebels, no diplomatic ante-upping games? It's impossible to be certain, but it certainly makes sense. What is indisputable is that further action on the part of USA will increase the death toll dramatically, as it has done everywhere else.

It's possible that the war might be already over if the US hadn't supported rebels, but we can't be sure. Someone else may have filled the vacuum. Consider that we weren't involved in Rawanda and 800,000 to 1,000,000 people were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

Also, I'd be a little embarrassed to suggest that the solution is to not have any media or political coverage. At the very least, there should be more coverage on the world stage.

It can only help if leaders know the world is watching, their acts are being recorded, and someday they may be held accountable.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#205

Post by jaekwon »

neals wrote: post #14
ck2 wrote: post #4

The feed is so pixelated, what if it's a shovel, and not a weapon? I felt this confusion constantly, as did my fellow UAV analysts. We always wonder if we killed the right people If this question even comes up once, drones should never, ever be armed. Why is is okay to repeatedly kill the wrong person in another country? Can you imagine if that happened even just once in the USA? We need an international ban on armed…

I think the innocent victims that we make today will get us on track to developing better drones with more resolution and less errors and doubt. I imagine a perfect drone without any human controller, doing it's business by AI, actually making the world a better place. [edit] lots of hate and naive comments. Fact remains that human progress has always come through sacrificing some of us for the greater good. Innocent…

The key difference is in the violence. People sacrifice themselves voluntarily for the slim chance of gain and the real chance of progress, all the time. There's no reason to think that killing is a necessary or efficient method of finding progress.

Methinks you just like killing people. That's pretty psychopathic. Don't you have any friends?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#206

Post by sliverstorm »

fit2rule wrote: post #183
sliverstorm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a far more honorable investment than the current situation. Honorable and effective are not the same. Seriously, the problem is hardly farming. The world has thousands of years of farming development, and Afghanistan has been farmed for just as long. Nor is the problem education systems. The problem is political, and I fail to see how we can drop K-12 educations on people who aren't allowed to or are un…

It is points of views such as yours which stand in the way of true peace being attained in the world. The problem is, and always has been: education. What sort of education gets delivered to the village when the US maims half its children, kills its elders, and terrorizes its mothers?

Yes, the long-term goal should be education. No, we can't bomb them with textbooks. When women are killed for trying to get an education, perhaps more drastic action than a better water pump for farming is merited.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#207

Post by aestra »

coldtea wrote: post #161
dantheman wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What military objectives - we are not at war with any of these countries.

> Why must war be against countries? Because that's it's very definition. > The types of activities being carried out in Yemen, Pakistan, etc, if state sanctioned, would be justification for war. Activities like weddings, hospital operations and schooling? > Does the fact that Yemen and Pakistan can't police themselves internally enough to stop these activities make military retaliation unjustified? Is there anything…

This is kinda off topic but Timothy McVey actually had no ties to Oklahoma at all, so Oklahoma would be safe, he looked up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building (the building he bombed) in the phone book. He was looking for a building with the max amount of federal offices in it. He grew up outside of Buffalo New York and lived somewhat of a transient life and he built the bomb with Terry Nochols in Kansas.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#208

Post by yummyfajitas »

jessaustin wrote: post #187
melling wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean like in Syria where 130,000 people have died? http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/02/us-syria-crisis-to... By some accounts, 1 in 10 killed was a child. Why don't we ever discuss this on HN? Until after the WWII, the US really didn't involve itself in much of the world's conflicts. Our tradition is to pretty much leave the world to fix its own problems. We joined WWI during the last year of the war and…

Would fewer people have died if USA hadn't interfered in Syria to the extent that we have? I.e., no constant media and political coverage, no arming the rebels, no diplomatic ante-upping games? It's impossible to be certain, but it certainly makes sense. What is indisputable is that further action on the part of USA will increase the death toll dramatically, as it has done everywhere else.

Further action on the part of the USA will always increase the death toll, like it did in Kosovo? And staying out of things will always reduce deaths, like in Rwanda?

I don't pretend to have the answer in the case of Syria, and I'm not advocating anything one way or another. I'm just pointing out that your model of the world doesn't appear to predict the past, let alone the future.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#209

Post by coldtea »

rayiner wrote: post #184
coldtea wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why must war be against countries? Because that's it's very definition. > The types of activities being carried out in Yemen, Pakistan, etc, if state sanctioned, would be justification for war. Activities like weddings, hospital operations and schooling? > Does the fact that Yemen and Pakistan can't police themselves internally enough to stop these activities make military retaliation unjustified? Is there anything…

War certainly isn't defined as being between nations. Think of wars involving Viking tribes, or the Barbary wars. And yes, to any given nation, people outside the nation are cheaper. Its a basic premise of human nations.

>War certainly isn't defined as being between nations. Think of wars involving Viking tribes, or the Barbary wars.

Those are pre-nation-state examples. The tribes (or city-states, or what have you) played the role of nation states back then.

>And yes, to any given nation, people outside the nation are cheaper. Its a basic premise of human nations.

It's much more seen in nations that are used to being on the upper side with minimal impact on them, the same kind of nations that have built and justified racist theories of inferiority.

(Hating the enemy in some capacity is always present, but thinking of him as an inferior/cheaper human is not).

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#210

Post by dasil003 »

fit2rule wrote: post #189
dasil003 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> viewpoints such as yours are contagious diseases Way to take an even-handed comment like mine stating facts with minimal value judgements and attempt to turn it into fuel for your idealogical steamroller. The only problem is you didn't really read and comprehend what I said.

The problem is, you don't realize what you are saying can be used by those who wish to murder to continue to do so. Yes, your point of view, since it is used tirelessly as a justification, is responsible for continued crimes against humanity.

The way you express your point of view will never change a single person's mind.
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