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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

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Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#321

Post by Nursie »

grecy wrote: post #250
jakejake wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it is true that when we turn 40 our brains rot. All we care about is keeping kids off of our lawn and catching the early-bird special. Many people don't like to share their salary - not because they wouldn't "dare" as if they are cowardly or not as enlightened as you. Some people find talking about personal salary or wealth to be distasteful - like a braggart yammering on about his expensive possessions. If…

My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply people are cowardly or I'm more enlightened, or anything like that. The word I was looking for is taboo. I believe that the baby boomers find talking about money to be a social taboo, while younger generations do not. It's not about any group or generation being better, I think it's just a change in what society finds acceptable. (To be honest, I'm not sure Gen Y'ers find anythi…

>> The word I was looking for is taboo. I believe that the baby boomers find talking about money to be a social taboo, while younger generations do not.

I'm the tail end of Gen X. Talking about your income is gauche, it inevitably leads to comparisons between peers (even unspoken ones) and can sow discord in a group.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#322

Post by KumarAseem »

abalone wrote: post #302
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

A slight problem with that thesis is that employees are generally not forbidden from discussing their salary. Rather they choose not to. Some consider it personal info. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. From that perspective, this could feel like the company forcing a decision on their employees that they would rather make for themselves. I would be a little concerned about injecting a culture with that.. it's a bit…

The places where I have worked (all in India), the offer/joining letter specifically mentions that "You will not disclose your salary to any inside or outside person. If you do so then you could be/will be asked to leave the organisation."

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#323

Post by jackgavigan »

kapilkale wrote: post #37

Seems unwise to have a CEO co-founder be the highest salaried employee at a startup. That person's equity position is probably at least an order of magnitude higher than the other employees. As an investor or employee, I'd find this alarming. http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/08/peter-thiel-best-predictor-... Call me old fashioned, but I think co-founders should be paid living expenses + 25%, even in a series-A funded st…

I would agree that founders of a startup should be taking a relatively low salary. However, Buffer is no longer a startup (using Steve Blank's definition: http://steveblank.com/2010/01/25/whats-a-startup-first-princ...). It's generating significant revenue and is break-even from a cash-flow perspective.

Investors don't necessarily want founders to pay themselves the absolute minimum because they want the founders to be happy and focused on building the company, instead of being distracted by money worries.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#324

Post by madaxe_again »

joelgascoigne wrote: post #270
kapilkale wrote: post #37

Seems unwise to have a CEO co-founder be the highest salaried employee at a startup. That person's equity position is probably at least an order of magnitude higher than the other employees. As an investor or employee, I'd find this alarming. http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/08/peter-thiel-best-predictor-... Call me old fashioned, but I think co-founders should be paid living expenses + 25%, even in a series-A funded st…

Joel here. This is a really interesting point, I've thought about it a lot. From the linked article: "In Startupland, everybody should be working towards the same goal: that big juicy exit. That’s the only payday any CEO should be worried about (even though more than half of them will never get it)." I can't agree with that, and this is a key reason I spoke with others in the team and we decided that my salary as wel…

We're not planning an exit any time soon, and are in growth mode, and we, the founders, take salaries slightly below the company average.

Why? Fairness. Our employees produce value, and we pay them justly for it. Excess value is retained in the company, and used for growth. The company, whether or not we choose to exit, is an asset owned by us, the founders. It's not a liquid asset, no, but it can be used for secured debt (i.e. borrowing against the value in the company), should we choose (we haven't).

We've been cashflow positive since day one and have revenues somewhat higher than yours. We've never taken investment.

For the first three years, my salary was £6k. Just enough to afford to eat and live in a squat. For the next three years, it was £22k. For the last two, it's been £30k. Our highest paid engineer is at about £60k basic - and we're not in London or a big city.

I guess at the end of the day it's a cultural call, and a personal one, but from my corner, I wouldn't be comfortable earning more than the folks who're doing the on-the-ground production, as we're not here to earn salaries, we're here to grow value.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#325

Post by mynewwork »

grecy wrote: post #296
laureny wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. I'm saying that because the employees know all the salaries, the employer has less control. How does the employer have less control when he is unilaterally deciding what the formula is and he can stonewall any request to discuss salary by hiding behind that formula? "You know what, Dave, I know you want more money but I just decided to add a negative 'is disrepectful of superiors' factor' and your salary just w…

> How does the employer have less control when he is unilaterally deciding what the formula is and he can stonewall any request to discuss salary by hiding behind that formula? Once everyone knows the employer is doing that kind of BS, they will go elsewhere, and the employer will be left with no employees. Employment is not some kind of privilege we should be thankful for. Remember that.

> Employment is not some kind of privilege we should be thankful for. Remember that.

So someone is compelled to provide me with employment? By what force and why? Am I automatically entitled to employment at any company of my choosing? Can I decide that you, Grecy, are responsible for employing me?

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#326

Post by sliverstorm »

grecy wrote: post #202
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…

I usually hide my pay these days. Last time I shared with someone I worked with, who it turned out made a fair bit less than I did, the guy got mad at me. I stopped sharing.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#327

Post by sliverstorm »

Arnor wrote: post #161
davemel37 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

Edit (add quote for clarity) > I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody... More likely, the response would be along the lines of: "You'll get a raise when you qualify based on the criteria that have been clearly explained to you and the rest of the world."

Of course, that leaves little room for merit pay within grades.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#329

Post by svmegatron »

mynewwork wrote: post #325
grecy wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does the employer have less control when he is unilaterally deciding what the formula is and he can stonewall any request to discuss salary by hiding behind that formula? Once everyone knows the employer is doing that kind of BS, they will go elsewhere, and the employer will be left with no employees. Employment is not some kind of privilege we should be thankful for. Remember that.

> Employment is not some kind of privilege we should be thankful for. Remember that. So someone is compelled to provide me with employment? By what force and why? Am I automatically entitled to employment at any company of my choosing? Can I decide that you, Grecy, are responsible for employing me?

No.

The employment contract is a business arrangement. Describing it in such value-laden terms does a disservice to all parties.

One is employed presumably because the arrangement is mutually beneficial; if it stops being mutually beneficial the arrangement is renegotiated or terminated.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#330

Post by asgard1024 »

I think if you don't like the idea of closed salary (I don't), you should just go ahead and publish yours publicly (on FB or something), if you have the guts to do it and face potential conflict with your employer (I don't have the guts, I wish I had).

Because, quite frankly, it's your money. No one should tell you what to do with it, much less to count these, publicly. And if, as the result of this, you get smaller salary, it will be there for the others in the company to see. How motivational.

I think even with this unilateral action, you will get most of the benefits - good people around you are likely to respond back and tell you if you're underpaid or overpaid.

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