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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

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Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#241

Post by dllthomas »

JonFish85 wrote: post #29

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

A possible approach by the boss would be to 1) see if there is flexibility to provide more within the current system (maybe Niel is more "senior" than we had recognized?), and 2) see about tweaking the formulae so everyone (or at least everyone with overlap with Niel) gets more. You may not be able to make up the whole difference, but you might not have to, and I expect very different social results than "we're paying him more to stay".

I've no particular confidence this would work well, but it seems a consistent approach that has some potential.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#242

Post by loomio »

nsxwolf wrote: post #219
wpietri wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I absolutely hate salary systems that give an advantage to people who are pushy, jerky, entitled, or privileged. Some of the best developers I know are pleasant, friendly, modest, don't like confrontation, and pay more attention to the work and the team than how much they're pocketing. Those people shouldn't be paid less.

Is asking for what you want pushy? I'm not sure we want to be praising people for being good little doormats. Learn to defend your work and ask for what you deserve.

There is so, so much more to this story that I don't even know where to begin. People "asking for what they want" takes on completely different contexts depending on their situation, background, gender. The system you are advocating will always pay more to the privileged, encourage a competitive, low-trust culture, and disadvantage many skilled people for reasons out of their control. Ultimately, it's the company that will miss out on the best talent.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#244

Post by thesausageking »

mrkmcknz wrote: post #19

Very humbling that no one at Buffer would call themselves a "Master", indeed many would probably but Joel at that level but he sits there on a 1.2x multiplier. I once had a conversation with an old hat who said "If you call yourself a python master you better be fucking Guido."

The truly great programmers are not going to work for Buffer. Their product has no hard technical challenges and they're paying very low salaries.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#245

Post by scotty79 »

sytelus wrote: post #205

Things I learned today: * Buffer is not somebody's weekend project * It needs 16 (yes, SIXTEEN) people to run that thing * They actually have revenue. In millions. $2.3 Millions! * Their company values are based on How to win friends and influence people. Aside from that, open salaries are pretty naive idea, if not completely dumb and dangerous. The lives you live everyday is in effect a game (as in "game theory" gam…

> Aside from that, open salaries are pretty naive idea, if not completely dumb and dangerous.

In Sweden all salaries are public, look how awful they are doing.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#246

Post by thesausageking »

zmitri wrote: post #30

I have a question: Why would the founders take such high salaries? Seems to go against everything I would think was important for a company that is venture-backed.

Because they can. They've only raised a small angel round, so have no investors telling them what their salaries need to be.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#247

Post by DominikR »

scotty79 wrote: post #245
sytelus wrote: post #205

Things I learned today: * Buffer is not somebody's weekend project * It needs 16 (yes, SIXTEEN) people to run that thing * They actually have revenue. In millions. $2.3 Millions! * Their company values are based on How to win friends and influence people. Aside from that, open salaries are pretty naive idea, if not completely dumb and dangerous. The lives you live everyday is in effect a game (as in "game theory" gam…

> Aside from that, open salaries are pretty naive idea, if not completely dumb and dangerous. In Sweden all salaries are public, look how awful they are doing.

In Norway too!

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#248

Post by jakejake »

grecy wrote: post #202
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…

I suppose it is true that when we turn 40 our brains rot. All we care about is keeping kids off of our lawn and catching the early-bird special.

Many people don't like to share their salary - not because they wouldn't "dare" as if they are cowardly or not as enlightened as you. Some people find talking about personal salary or wealth to be distasteful - like a braggart yammering on about his expensive possessions. If you have no economic diversity in your group of friends then it's probably no big deal, but otherwise you likely are making people feel ashamed and unsuccessful. Some people might feel it's rude and unnecessary to discuss your salary unless there is some reason to do so.

I don't personally have a problem with a fair and consistent formula for salaries within a company, and people within my company may be able to deduce what I make. It's not a power trip thing. But I don't really want my salary mandatorily posted on the web for every random friend or stranger to investigate. Unless I'm working in the public sector it's my own choice and my own business.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#249

Post by grecy »

laureny wrote: post #221
grecy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…

> Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. You seem to imply that just because the employees know all the salaries, they have more control. This is not accurate. They have more knowledge but certainly not more control. If anything, the fact that the salaries are the result of a simple equation means that the employees have close to no cont…

> You seem to imply that just because the employees know all the salaries, they have more control. This is not accurate.

No. I'm saying that because the employees know all the salaries, the employer has less control.

The employer can no longer dictate terms and make secret differing deals with different parties.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#250

Post by grecy »

jakejake wrote: post #248
grecy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…

I suppose it is true that when we turn 40 our brains rot. All we care about is keeping kids off of our lawn and catching the early-bird special. Many people don't like to share their salary - not because they wouldn't "dare" as if they are cowardly or not as enlightened as you. Some people find talking about personal salary or wealth to be distasteful - like a braggart yammering on about his expensive possessions. If…

My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply people are cowardly or I'm more enlightened, or anything like that.

The word I was looking for is taboo. I believe that the baby boomers find talking about money to be a social taboo, while younger generations do not.

It's not about any group or generation being better, I think it's just a change in what society finds acceptable.

(To be honest, I'm not sure Gen Y'ers find anything to be socially taboo. I wouldn't be surprised if that word stops having meaning)

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