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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

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Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#171

Post by dj-wonk »

I've read dozens of the comments on this page so far. The thing that jumps out to me is the interplay between these factors: (1) internal transparency (2) external transparency (3) internal privacy (4) external privacy (5) human motivation and (6) company culture. There are many combinations here, and I can't help but think Buffer didn't do an effective "search" across the possible "parameter space", even according to their own goals and interests.

For example, Buffer could have easily added a policy saying that each employee's compensation may be adjusted by, say, +/- 20% based on individual factors. That would give some uncertainty, and thus a bit of individual privacy. Peers would still have some confidence that they were, more or less, in a similar range as others with their public performance characteristics.

Let's put ideology aside (i.e. do we want this to work, according to our theories of human nature) and focus on the actual effects. How do you know if you've succeeded? How do you measure this? How do you design the experiment?

Call me skeptical, but I can't help but think that Buffer is doing this, largely, to say "look at us!" and "this makes an interesting blog post!".

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#173

Post by mrjatx »

steveklabnik wrote: post #166
mrjatx wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

How can you determine market pay when salaries are private? You end up with what we have now: looking at what companies post publicly for salary offers. Some companies don't publish those numbers publicly, and that's only 'new hire' salaries. So it's inaccurate.

You as the employee with that skill DETERMINE the market value. If every IOS developer refuses to work for $40k and want $80k the market will start having to pay $80k. Yeah there will be outliers, maybe someone desperate for a chance to prove themselves, or someone who was unemployed will take that $40k but that is not the market value.

It's not some vooodoo a company makes up, you yourself have a direct affect on the market value by turning down and taking positions. If I can't find anybody to hire at $40k I might start offering $60k and more until I get the amount and quality of applicants I desire.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#174

Post by newobj »

Well, Sunil and Colin, seeing that you are criminally underpaid, are you interested in opportunities elsewhere?

I will figuratively eat my underwear if you don't come to regret this strategy (public, non-anonymous open vs. internally open) at some point.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#175

Post by mathattack »

I'm very much on the fence with this. If you follow a simple formula, it can work. If you need to use judgment (how to pay a superstar?) then it becomes very tricky. My general observation is that any time two people compare salaries, one is disappointed. And here you shared your salaries with the whole world. Bravo for doing this, and engaging the discussion.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#176

Post by baddox »

Arnor wrote: post #161
davemel37 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

Edit (add quote for clarity) > I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody... More likely, the response would be along the lines of: "You'll get a raise when you qualify based on the criteria that have been clearly explained to you and the rest of the world."

Sure, but what does that have to do with salary openness?

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#177

Post by mathattack »

davemel37 wrote: post #156
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...)

If you see this, it is time to run. Fast. Very fast. Unless salaries are completely open, they should be confidential.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#178

Post by mathattack »

JonFish85 wrote: post #29

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?"

This sets a terrible precedent. I've been in places where people knew they had to get a better offer to get a raise, so the entire office was job-hunting. Much better to figure out some benchmark ("To get the best folks we pay in the top quintile and insist on no OT" or "We pay modest base salaries, but give double the usual equity to share upside and incent people to act like owners") and then stick to it. Top people will rarely leave for a small raise, though they will leave over disrespect or boredom.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#179

Post by [deleted] »

humanrebar wrote: post #160
zmitri wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. For less than that amount I had a floor of a brownstone in Brooklyn, 20-30 minute commute via subway, paid off 10 year student loans in It's that's "only" middle class, the world is in serious trouble.

Sounds middle class to me. Having a few months expenses in the bank and a 30 minute commute. Checks out modulo crime rate and quality of local public schools, both of which vary a lot in Brooklyn.

[deleted]

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#180

Post by Diamons »

It's honestly stuff like this that makes me feel like the only sane person around. Why would you do this? If the CEO is pushing for it, the employees will all smile and nod and go along with the crowd, but all this does is breed resentment. The idea of open salaries sounds good on paper, but it's simply idealistic.

You can sing the happiness song and do all the lets-be-friends dances but at the end of the day we're people competing for resources. This will have lasting effects to all current employees for sure.

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