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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

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Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#161

Post by Arnor »

davemel37 wrote: post #156
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

Edit (add quote for clarity) > I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody...

More likely, the response would be along the lines of: "You'll get a raise when you qualify based on the criteria that have been clearly explained to you and the rest of the world."

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#162

Post by wmeredith »

ryanSrich wrote: post #57
benihana wrote: post #36

This sounds like absolute hell > Every internal email sent between any 2 people on the team has a certain list cc’ed that is accessible for everyone: For example if 2 engineers email with each other, they cc the engineers list, if it’s people on our customer support team they have a support email list cc’ed. Stripe was a great inspiration for this. (More about this) Openness and transparency and honesty are great. Bu…

And that's completely ignoring the shitstorm of emails one would recieve on any given day. Email is a drain on productivity and this seems like it would make it even more so. Having access to conversations between parties is nice but please don't send me meaningless emails all day long.

A list everyone had access to was CC'd. I don't think everyone in the company is CC'd on every email.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#163

Post by simoncion »

overpaidprobly wrote: post #119

Does anyone have an opinion on how these numbers square with market rates? I make $113k/year as a juniorish engineer at a VC backed startup in SV. Am I hilariously overcompensated?

It seems that market rate for a junior (0->2 years experience) web developer is ~$110k + benefits. You are not hilariously overcompensated.

Ignore the various salary estimate sites. There's no way that they have an accurate view of the world.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#164

Post by lhnz »

Arnor wrote: post #161
davemel37 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

Edit (add quote for clarity) > I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody... More likely, the response would be along the lines of: "You'll get a raise when you qualify based on the criteria that have been clearly explained to you and the rest of the world."

Something which doesn't seem clear to me is whether the team is able to properly evaluate the pay of their colleagues. Surely the people that are most friendly and fit most of the in-group traits of the group will benefit most? What about the creative and non socially-correct members that don't fit in - should they move to different companies?

In general, I cast doubt on the idea that employees really know what's important because of principle-agent problems and culture.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#165

Post by davemel37 »

Arnor wrote: post #161
davemel37 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…

Edit (add quote for clarity) > I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody... More likely, the response would be along the lines of: "You'll get a raise when you qualify based on the criteria that have been clearly explained to you and the rest of the world."

Perhaps... but this relies on an awfully idealistic view of real life. What goes into a salary decision is much more personal than a universal formula can dictate.

This is a classic excuse to put different people into the same box.

I believe it to be completely inappropriate and unprofessional to be transparent with something as personal as salaries...and saying that were all in the same boat just doesnt excuse this behavior.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#166

Post by steveklabnik »

mrjatx wrote: post #154
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

How can you determine market pay when salaries are private?

You end up with what we have now: looking at what companies post publicly for salary offers. Some companies don't publish those numbers publicly, and that's only 'new hire' salaries. So it's inaccurate.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#167

Post by lancewiggs »

mrjatx wrote: post #154
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

>If you're happy to make $88k and the guy doing the same job next to you is making $110k, I don't see any problem

One problem is that the first person is often female, not white or foreign.

Another is the demotivational effect when the first person eventually does find out they are underpaid versus colleagues or the market - and they generally do. And then they will leave.

It gets worse when the lower paid person is clearly outperforming the higher paid person, or where the higher paid person is clearly under performing.

And finally it's just not the right thing to treat people unfairly versus their peers. If the lower paid person is being underpaid then quietly fix the issue.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#170

Post by maaaats »

mrjatx wrote: post #154
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

>> You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for.

Yeah, well, not easy when everyone is hiding it. All info I can get is too generalized.

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