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What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

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Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#101

Post by eqdw »

dragonwriter wrote: post #91
WildUtah wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen dense pleasant and unpleasant and rural pleasant and unpleasant and most possibilities in between. I don't mean to equate the one axis with the other. It is very challenging to build mid-density pleasant surroundings without making car traffic impossibly nasty, though. The DPZ architecture firm in Miami has proven that heroic effort can answer even that challenge. San Francisco is more expensive than San Jo…

> San Francisco is more expensive than San Jose because more people want to live in a city built like SF than one like SJ. No, its more expensive than SJ because it has a major port (driving commercial value) and substantial beachfront, and because groups attracted directly by those two things also, themselves, produce additional indirect demand. California communities with even one of these things that are built mor…

> Sure, more housing supply will lower housing prices -- and the resulting increase in population will increase the demand for everything else that plays into affordability of living in the city. What do the laws of supply and demand say about that?

Yep. You're exactly right. Population is increasing, driving demand, raising prices. Problem is, population will continue to increase for the projected future. Since it's unconstitutional to prevent people from moving somewhere, this needs to be accommodated.

Building more housing will induce demand. But it will also mitigate against a future where growing demand and fixed supply raise rents even more.

The _ONLY_ way to substantively lower rents is to increase supply or decrease demand. Nothing else will solve this. And for what it's worth, rent is about 65% of my monthly budget; lowering rents would substantially increase affordability/cost of living in this area

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#102

Post by lhc- »

dkokelley wrote: post #72
chadwickthebold wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a wage that was at least a decent amount above the federal poverty level?

By most measures the man in question does earn a rate higher than the "federal poverty level". It seems like the issue is that he doesn't work enough hours.

The federal poverty level isn't particularly relevant if you are in a place that is considerably more expensive than average. Also, its not that he does not want to work enough hours, his employer doesn't allow him to work more. Plus, by that token, I could argue $7/hour is a livable wage, as long as you work 100 hours a week.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#103

Post by ThomPete »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #98
ThomPete wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the argument often is that those who make the most worked harder than anyone else. My point is that most people work hard so it's not by any metrics and explanation for why some people do really well and others don't. The name of the University you go to however. Now that matters a lot.

>Because the argument often is that those who make the most worked harder than anyone else. I don't think that I've ever heard that argument made in my life.

Then you haven't been listening.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#104

Post by lhc- »

dkokelley wrote: post #18
altoz wrote: post #6

It's interesting to note that this guy NEVER gets more than 30 hours. This is most likely to make sure the employee can't be considered full-time. I'm sure Google would rather hire 15 guys at 40-60 hours instead of 40 guys at 20 hours, but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it.

Google hasn't hired anybody. The security company was awarded a contract to provide security services, which is fulfilled by employing some people at "But Google is benefiting from this exploitation!" you might say. Yes. Google can pay less for security services because the guards ultimately cost less. If the guards worked 40 hours/week, the contract cost would have to increase, and another lower cost security compan…

What do you propose for those people who work these non-livable jobs (including security jobs, janitors, restaurant service workers, and whatever else) to allow them to, well, live? Because you can't just ignore it and say they should get better jobs: someone has to do these things.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#105

Post by lhc- »

eplanit wrote: post #33
altoz wrote: post #6

It's interesting to note that this guy NEVER gets more than 30 hours. This is most likely to make sure the employee can't be considered full-time. I'm sure Google would rather hire 15 guys at 40-60 hours instead of 40 guys at 20 hours, but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it.

True. That's partially due to Obamacare. If more than 30 hours, the employer has to provide coverage, which greatly increases the cost of that employee.

If only we could just make these people work for free and not provide any benefits, and just let them die in the street or go bankrupt because they got sick, the market would fix everything and the world would be perfect.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#106

Post by alexeisadeski3 »

ThomPete wrote: post #103
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because the argument often is that those who make the most worked harder than anyone else. I don't think that I've ever heard that argument made in my life.

Then you haven't been listening.

[citation needed]

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#107

Post by olefoo »

dkokelley wrote: post #19
olefoo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google has no idea what this person makes. They can certainly find out. Just like ethically sourced coffee beans are a thing; ethically sourced menial labour can be a thing. It's hip and cool to use ethically sourced labor that isn't toxic to the society you live in. :-)

How would you define an ethical wage for menial labor?

Enough to live with dignity; within walking/biking/transit distance of the job.

With dignity implies; not starving, not being housing insecure, not being unable to afford health care.

Note that it does not imply that you can afford a vehicle, television or an internet connection; although the latter might be worth adding to the former.

I personally think that companies that deliberately structure employment relationships to deny workers full-time status should be pursued as tax evaders.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#108

Post by olefoo »

WildUtah wrote: post #66
blhack wrote: post #36

/s Does anybody see a link to this guys github profile? I wonder how far along he is on any side projects that he's working on. Surely he must hang out at any of the many coworking spaces in SF on the weekend, right? I don't mean to be crass here, but...there are SO MANY programs available for this guy to learn to code, and then get the employee benefit of taking home free food from his employer (seriously? He's upse…

Furthermore, move out of the bay area, man! That's one of the most expensive places to live in the country! Whenever I see these articles, I think about what makes the Bay Area expensive. The key factor is housing prices. There's a limited amount of land available near the centers of SV because of mountains and natural areas. Supply is strictly constrained and demand is very strong because of industry growth. The res…

There is an opportunity for new types of thinking here. Turn Treasure Island into an arcology suitable to house a half-million people in style and comfort...

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#109

Post by ThomPete »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #106
ThomPete wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you haven't been listening.

[citation needed]

You want me to find citations for other peoples claims about hard work as a reason why some people make it and other don't?

You don't have to believe me, but just because you haven't heard that I am not going to spend time finding citation.

But a quick look around this thread should point you in the right direction.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#110

Post by alexeisadeski3 »

ThomPete wrote: post #109
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed]

You want me to find citations for other peoples claims about hard work as a reason why some people make it and other don't? You don't have to believe me, but just because you haven't heard that I am not going to spend time finding citation. But a quick look around this thread should point you in the right direction.

>You want me to find citations for other peoples claims about hard work as a reason why some people make it and other don't?

I want you to find someone who's claimed hard work was the reason for their success.

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