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What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

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Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#41

Post by discreteevent »

blhack wrote: post #36

/s Does anybody see a link to this guys github profile? I wonder how far along he is on any side projects that he's working on. Surely he must hang out at any of the many coworking spaces in SF on the weekend, right? I don't mean to be crass here, but...there are SO MANY programs available for this guy to learn to code, and then get the employee benefit of taking home free food from his employer (seriously? He's upse…

Fair point but remember its possible that he knows he will never make the grade at programming. He can know that from trying similar things before again and again. Some 'nerds' will never make the grade at football. They don't need to keep trying in order to know that and if you keep pushing it on them they find it insulting and possibly even humiliating.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#42

Post by schmichael »

blhack wrote: post #36

/s Does anybody see a link to this guys github profile? I wonder how far along he is on any side projects that he's working on. Surely he must hang out at any of the many coworking spaces in SF on the weekend, right? I don't mean to be crass here, but...there are SO MANY programs available for this guy to learn to code, and then get the employee benefit of taking home free food from his employer (seriously? He's upse…

If your solution is for all of the security guards to become programmers, who will be the security guards?

Or perhaps you just want enough poor people to move away/up until there's high enough demand for low skill jobs that their income increases. Sound Economics 101, but much more nuanced in reality.

Update: I was just informed "/s" means sarcasm. Mea culpa.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#43

Post by mikeyouse »

ericabiz wrote: post #28
stephencanon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to pull yourself out of poverty and you’re very lucky , all doors can be open to you. Not everyone will be as lucky as you were.

I'm genuinely curious as to why people believe that it is 100% up to "luck" that some people are successful and others are not. If it was "luck", wouldn't CEOs be evenly distributed amongst minorities, men, and women? Or at least per the population distribution? Or are white males just that much more "lucky" than women and minorities? If you think answering those questions is tough, you and I are on the same page--th…

I think you're misunderstanding Stephen's point. He's not saying that all it takes is luck to be successful. I think it was more a comment on the rarity of income mobility from parents to children.

Look at the calculator in the middle of this NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/business/in-climbing-incom...

If you look at the median income of a child born in San Jose to parents who were making $20k/year, only 11% of them make it into the top quintile. Only 1/4 of them will make it into the top 40% of the income distribution.

This skewed mobility is what people ascribe to 'luck' when people work their way out of poverty. Obviously it's a complex issue that is somewhat trivialized by calling the successful ones 'lucky', but it's a shortcut to describing the rarity of upwards mobility from parents to kids.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#44

Post by cmiles74 »

ericabiz wrote: post #28
stephencanon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to pull yourself out of poverty and you’re very lucky , all doors can be open to you. Not everyone will be as lucky as you were.

I'm genuinely curious as to why people believe that it is 100% up to "luck" that some people are successful and others are not. If it was "luck", wouldn't CEOs be evenly distributed amongst minorities, men, and women? Or at least per the population distribution? Or are white males just that much more "lucky" than women and minorities? If you think answering those questions is tough, you and I are on the same page--th…

There are a number of people who are CEO of this-or-that because they are smart, skilled CEOs with the proper credentials. And there are some that lack credentials and make this up by being smarter or better. And some who are pretty dumb and inept but make up for it by having really great credentials.

You're comment asks why people believe it's "100% up to 'luck'" and I'd argue that there are few people making that argument. Rather, the argument goes, luck is a component of getting a high-paying CEO salary. I don't think this is in any way arguable.

The argument that there's no luck and it's 100% skill on the part of the CEO is equally silly. Even if skill was the largest success predictor, credentials would still need to be evenly distributed throughout the population to achieve your utopian vision.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#45

Post by WildUtah »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

Is it better to have """low pay""" in San Jose or low pay in Tijuana?

According to the Pew Hispanic Center, more people have moved from the USA to Mexico than from Mexico to the USA in each of the past six years. The reverse flow was strong in the 1990's. That's one clue that maybe low pay in Tijuana is getting to be better than San Jose, at least compared to before.

I don't know of specific data between Tijuana and San Jose.

I do know recent college graduates in SF and Mexico City, though. It's clear that the average wage in relation to the cost of living is higher in Mexico City. My impression is that unskilled and low wage workers are probably a lot better off north of the Río Bravo, though maybe not at SF/SJ prices.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#46

Post by selmnoo »

ericabiz wrote: post #26
grecy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. You were making $50k - (in 2001?) - that's $65k in 2012 dollars. This guy is making $16,800 ($1,400/mo). That's 4 times less than you were, and you think you're comparable?

I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quoted the higher number.) $49,500/year was after I spent over a year learning development, and our startup got bought out by a huge company, and I interviewed into a role at the big company as a developer. I also started out working for a subcontractor, much like…

Implicit in your reasoning is the suggestion that a security guard doesn't deserve a dignified living wage. I disagree with that -- I think in a civilized society he should be able to afford his own place, provide for his daughter, give her rides as needed without sacrificing job security, etc. As the other poster mentioned, we /need/ such people... we need people who mow the lawns, people who flip burgers, people who shovel snow. We shouldn't think of them as humans that don't deserve a respectable living wage.

re: luck, and making it in the valley

Consider the fact that if there was someone quite like Bill Gates, same skillset, same personality, etc. starting out today, how far he'd be able to get. I would assert that it's unlikely that he'd be able to maneuver the SV world today and be able to get more than about 300k. But the real-life Bill Gates has some 60 billion dollar worth... so what's the issue? Clearly luck is a big factor.. you have to be at the right place at the right time, with the connections, with the money, etc. I have known way too many poor people who work unbelievably hard... so I just couldn't disagree more with what you have to say.

I would like to respectfully suggest to you that you take some time out and maybe volunteer at a soup kitchen so that you are made more familiar with the real battles a lot of people face today. People like you and I, but without the social support, without the coveted connections and networks, without the job security, without the time to be able to learn a programming language without external pressures (like the pressure to just make money for this month's rent, so your daughter still has a roof on her head). It's very tough for them out there, and getting up is not as easy as you think it is.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#47

Post by cmiles74 »

ericabiz wrote: post #26
grecy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. You were making $50k - (in 2001?) - that's $65k in 2012 dollars. This guy is making $16,800 ($1,400/mo). That's 4 times less than you were, and you think you're comparable?

I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quoted the higher number.) $49,500/year was after I spent over a year learning development, and our startup got bought out by a huge company, and I interviewed into a role at the big company as a developer. I also started out working for a subcontractor, much like…

Desktop support has and always will pay more than being a security guard in a parking lot. I did desktop support in the nineties as well and made decently more than my roommate who, oddly enough, worked in a parking garage.

There is nothing comparable about a contractor who does desktop support versus a contractor who does security work in a parking lot. I don't think you really believe these are at all the same thing. They are a very different set of skills.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#48

Post by schrodinger »

ericabiz wrote: post #38
grecy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. $15/hour * 40 hours a week * 52 weeks = $31k in 2001 dollars = $40,000 in 2012 dollars. That's still more that double Manny's income. > Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom A person living on the streets has lower expenses than you too, but that doesn't mean it's by choice or a good thing.

I didn't work full-time when I started there. College student, remember? I didn't have a full-time gig until I dropped out of college in 2001. BigCo refused to bring on part-time workers, so I quit school and interviewed into the developer role, which was FT and necessitated me dropping out of school. Edited my previous post to reflect correct timeline: 1999: Moved to Valley; got a job doing desktop support at a star…

Ok great, so become a developer to make more money. What if he doesn't want to be a developer? What if he doesn't have the talent to become one? Then he has no right to complain? Is being a developer more noble than being a security guard?

You have to realize we're lucky to be talented in a field that pays really well.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#49

Post by ry0ohki »

olefoo wrote: post #13
dkokelley wrote: post #11

I dislike the implication that external contractors are basically second-class employees that are being exploited by the hiring company. Google has no idea what this person makes. Google hired a security company to perform a service. Event/site security is not Google's core competency. I am well aware of the external contractor dynamic. I work at a small company that provides services to $Fortune_500_company. My acce…

> Google has no idea what this person makes. They can certainly find out. Just like ethically sourced coffee beans are a thing; ethically sourced menial labour can be a thing. It's hip and cool to use ethically sourced labor that isn't toxic to the society you live in. :-)

It sounds like his job could easily be replaced by a computer program and camera. I have a feeling left to Google they would get rid of the job completely.

Re: What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

#50

Post by MattGrommes »

ericabiz wrote: post #16

I never know what to make of these articles. I started out with low pay in Silicon Valley, too; I took a job at a startup in 1999 making $15/hour doing IT desktop support. In 2002 (edit: this was 2002, not 2001), when I quit to do consulting and start my own company, things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. I am a college dropout. By traditional standards, th…

The article did say he was going to work at a non-profit. This article could have come just as he starts to work his way up.
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