I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam • Hacker News Board

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#131

Post by Crito » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 5:12 PM UTC

benjohnson wrote: post #118

Crito wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lutherans, much like modern Catholics (the two seem to differ mainly in organizational layout these days, most of Martin Luther's grievances have been since corrected by the RCC..) and like most other protestants (I dare not say "all", but it probably is not far off) consult with their god. They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. You can clasp your hands and ask yo…

I'm a Lutheran and we expressly deny divination. Prayer is not divination primarily in that receiving a 'voice form God' would by met with extreme suspicion and would not be shared. In Lutheran theology, we expect to find God's word written in the Bible. http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=D&word=DIVINATION

Whether or not you receive a message back is not particularly important. One-way telephathic communication with gods is still wacky.

Yeah, I get that you deny what you call divination. The point I am making here is that all the non-endorsed forms of magic get called what they are, while the endorsed forms of magic get endless circular arguments of "well you see this stuff is different..."

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#132

Post by Crito » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 5:19 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #117

Crito wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lutherans, much like modern Catholics (the two seem to differ mainly in organizational layout these days, most of Martin Luther's grievances have been since corrected by the RCC..) and like most other protestants (I dare not say "all", but it probably is not far off) consult with their god. They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. You can clasp your hands and ask yo…

>>> They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. I think you taking it too literally. When religious person says "God blessed me with the gift of children", they rarely mean that the God - as an actual supernatural being - came to them in person and produced their children as a gift. Most probably, they know exactly where the children come from, and were actually presen…

I don't think you are thinking about this critically. Just skimming the surface off:

">>> I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. I have heard the whole Christianity described as idolatry. So what? The question if Christianity is idolatry or not from the POV of anybody is not the question we were discussing."

I was making a very specific point here. Christians accuse other christians of practicing witchcraft when they practice forms of prayer that they do not approve of.

Asking the Virgin Mary to pray on your behalf in Catholicism is whitelisted, therefore according to Catholics it is not witchcraft at all. According to tackless hardline protestants, it is not whitelisted, therefore they label it as what it really is, a form of divination.

Furthermore, your definition of divination is steeped in Christian bias. What you are really saying is "prayer is not divination because it is [magical woo] while divination is [magical woo what does not fit the Christian perspective towards relationships between gods and men]".

Whether or not you demand an immediate answer or need to be a "true believer" when you engage in the practice are both completely inconsequential. They are still both blatant magical thinking.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#133

Post by Crito » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #104

Crito wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no fundamental difference here. Clasping your hands, asking a god for guidance in your head, then interpreting your own thoughts as the advice of a god is really no different from asking a god a question, putting your hands on a Ouija board, letting the ideomotor effect do its thing, then interpreting the output of the ideomotor effect as the word of your god. The only difference is that mainstream Christian…

There is a major difference: physical manifestation.

Physical manifestation? It is all physical! You cannot escape the physical. Whether you are making the decision in your mind then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god and not yourself, or if you are making the decision in your mind, spelling it out, then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god... either one is magical thinking and either one is taking place in the 'physical world'.

You don't need the Ouija board for one of them, but you are just listing your personal whitelist criteria to me. Either one is still magical thinking.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#134

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #132

smsm42 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. I think you taking it too literally. When religious person says "God blessed me with the gift of children", they rarely mean that the God - as an actual supernatural being - came to them in person and produced their children as a gift. Most probably, they know exactly where the children come from, and were actually presen…

I don't think you are thinking about this critically. Just skimming the surface off: " >>> I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. I have heard the whole Christianity described as idolatry. So what? The question if Christianity is idolatry or not from the POV of anybody is not the question we were discussing." I was making a very specific…

> Asking the Virgin Mary to pray on your behalf in Catholicism is whitelisted, therefore according to Catholics it is not witchcraft at all. According to tackless hardline protestants, it is not whitelisted, therefore they label it as what it really is, a form of divination.

Er, its not divination in any case, and that isn't what hardline Protestants call it. The issue some Protestants have with intercessory prayer isn't that it is "divination" but that it is, as they see it, inconsistent with monotheism (incidentally, this is the same problem that, e.g., many Muslims have with Christian trinitarianism.)

> Furthermore, your definition of divination is steeped in Christian bias.

Its what the word means. Whether or not that fact is a result of a history of Christian bias is, really, beside the point; if you want a generalized term for superstition modern English has one; abusing a term with a different and clear definition for that purpose just obstructs communication.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#135

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 8:31 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #132

smsm42 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. I think you taking it too literally. When religious person says "God blessed me with the gift of children", they rarely mean that the God - as an actual supernatural being - came to them in person and produced their children as a gift. Most probably, they know exactly where the children come from, and were actually presen…

I don't think you are thinking about this critically. Just skimming the surface off: " >>> I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. I have heard the whole Christianity described as idolatry. So what? The question if Christianity is idolatry or not from the POV of anybody is not the question we were discussing." I was making a very specific…

You claim various strands of Christianity disagree on what is allowed and what is not. Not exactly news, but you have no argument from me here - they do. Neither of them, though, endorses fortune telling or divination - and I explained elsewhere in this thread why prayer is nothing like divination, and never is equated to such by any official religious authority either.

>>> therefore they label it as what it really is, a form of divination.

Could you quote any reputable source that expresses it like that, that calling to Virgin Mary is not just wrong or prohibited for a protestant, but is actually a form of divination?

You argument seems to suggest that if some Christian faiths disagree on some specific account, then there can be no agreement between them on any account. This is of course false.

>>> Furthermore, your definition of divination is steeped in Christian bias

That's a funny accusation, given that I am not a Christian and never felt a desire to be one. I gave specific criteria on the difference. You did not show any flaw in my argument, you just labeled it "magical woo" and dismissed it.

>>> They are still both blatant magical thinking.

I'm not sure what you mean by "magical thinking" - does saying "magical woo" and expecting this to win an argument qualify? Divination and prayer are completely different practices, and while different religions could endorse both, dominant religions in relevant demographics endorse one and do not endorse the other. If you want to change your argument by conceding prayer is not divination and instead claiming prayer is "magical thinking" - be my guest, but then I'd recommend to actually learn what prayer means for people that actually pray and for religions that practice it. I'm pretty sure magic plays very little role there.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#136

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 9:07 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #128

smsm42 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> Prayer is absolutely "telepathic communication to God" in at least one direction Which one would that be? If the prayer were God reading your mind, you didn't need to pray - God is omniscient, so He already knows what you're praying about. Moreover, He already knew what you would be praying about before you started. Why they are praying then, you ask? Try to answer this question (honestly, not jumping to the conv…

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what you're objecting to now. Let me lay out my claims in a simple fashion: 1. Most if not all Abrahamic religions hold that you can effectively pray in silence and without doing anything besides thinking your prayer. 2. Prayer is communicating with God and communicating by pure thought is telepathy. 3. God is expected to reply in some way, and you're encouraged to look for and…

1. Depends. E.g. see some Judaic takes on it: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7872/which-parts-... I'm sure there are different takes on this among Christians and Muslims too.

2. Not really.

3. Not at all.

The idea that you can make God do things by thinking about some stuff sounds strange to me. However, nothing I know about Avraamic religions suggests you can do that. Of course, the scripture contains examples of people - called prophets or Holy Ones, etc. - communicating directly with God and even causing change is God's behavior (the latter is exceedingly rare, but you could find some examples) - but a normal regular person is not expected to do that.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#137

Post by diplomatpuppy » Tue, Dec 17, 2013, 10:49 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #131

benjohnson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Lutheran and we expressly deny divination. Prayer is not divination primarily in that receiving a 'voice form God' would by met with extreme suspicion and would not be shared. In Lutheran theology, we expect to find God's word written in the Bible. http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=D&word=DIVINATION

Whether or not you receive a message back is not particularly important. One-way telephathic communication with gods is still wacky. Yeah, I get that you deny what you call divination. The point I am making here is that all the non-endorsed forms of magic get called what they are, while the endorsed forms of magic get endless circular arguments of "well you see this stuff is different..."

>>One-way telephathic communication with gods is still wacky.

Not at all. For example, if God would like you to have free will then return communication would be rather scant.

For example - if God made himself obviously known then your will to love perhaps would not be as genuine.

Your premise that Gods would come forms that you expect isn't logical.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#138

Post by livingparadox » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 1:03 AM UTC

pekk wrote: post #18

livingparadox wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I nearly choked on my water when I read his method for vetting it. Also, I take a slight offense at that last part...

If the first entails the second, that doesn't mean the second entails the first

This is true. However, the fact that he mentioned this when religion was irrelevant to the story seems to imply he feels that religious thinking leads to superstitious thinking.

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#139

Post by livingparadox » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 1:04 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #96

livingparadox wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I nearly choked on my water when I read his method for vetting it. Also, I take a slight offense at that last part...

It's pretty clear in the article that he was trying to convince himself despite his doubts. If he didn't get the low score in his game, he would have found something else to convince him it was right.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my response...

Re: I Flew to Lagos and Got Beaten Up Because of a Nigerian Email Scam

#140

Post by mikeash » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 1:16 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #136

mikeash wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what you're objecting to now. Let me lay out my claims in a simple fashion: 1. Most if not all Abrahamic religions hold that you can effectively pray in silence and without doing anything besides thinking your prayer. 2. Prayer is communicating with God and communicating by pure thought is telepathy. 3. God is expected to reply in some way, and you're encouraged to look for and…

1. Depends. E.g. see some Judaic takes on it: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7872/which-parts-... I'm sure there are different takes on this among Christians and Muslims too. 2. Not really. 3. Not at all. The idea that you can make God do things by thinking about some stuff sounds strange to me. However, nothing I know about Avraamic religions suggests you can do that. Of course, the scripture contains ex…

Let's take what I consider to be the most obvious part: #2. You say that communicating with God using pure thought is not "telepathy". Why not? Communicating with pure thought is basically the definition of the word.