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NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

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Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#161
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for whistleblowing on how the NSA is abusing its powers to spy on US citizens, and I think it's extremely important that he did so. I really wish he'd constrained himself to that. I can't believe you're saying this. Is your judgement so clouded by patriotism that you somehow think other people have no right to their privacy? Let me explain the consequences of what you are suggesting here, apart from the obvio…

If you follow this sort of belief to it's logical conclusion, then why should we have any sort of intelligence agency?

You could think of it as detectives with a global jurisdiction. You don't need a tremendous amount of secrecy in what you're doing to do that job.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not naive enough to think that there are no threats in the world, nor that we can trust our allies to always have our interests in mind (ignoring the fact that "our interests" is a debatable subject). They have a mountain of data already -- if they can't get a sense of what's going on from that then maybe they're not up to the task. Slightly tangential anecdata: the FBI was warned about the suspicious flight scho…

You should be very careful with that snark, because it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders that what kept the USG from utilizing its intelligence to stop 9/11 was inter-agency siloing; ie, NSA and CIA not sharing information with FBI.

Yes and no on the snark part. Don't we want them to "stop the bad guys"? That's the whole point of all of those agencies.

The FBI had information within the organization itself and still fumbled the ball: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03...

The CIA likely helped create Al Qaeda, so perhaps they were protecting their own. Or maybe they were too busy running drugs and plotting the overthrow of other governments to get the memo out.

Sorry, no love for any of these guys.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#163
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What moral ground does the United States have for directly invading the personal communications of the leaders of its allies? Ostensibly this is all about protecting the itself from danger. What is the threat posed by, say, Germany?

>>What is the threat posed by, say, Germany? You picked the worst example. Five years before Germany invaded Polland, Allied leaders held Hitler and Mussolini in very high regard and publicly praised their gentlemanly natures and leadership abilities.

Like Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people believe that there is a "human social contract" or "natural rights" or some variation thereof, but it's incorrect to say that the Constitution enshrines that concept. What the Constitution says is that the rights the colonists already possessed, by virtue of long-standing practice and their status as Englishmen, were not prejudiced by the new Constitution. It's blatant historical revisionism to assert tha…

Yes, "the people" formed the United States. This isn't disputed. The entire body of the Constitution deals with limiting and delineating federal power.

Right. But if you read the Constitution in light of the Federalist papers, it is clear that those limitations on federal power apply domestically. Otherwise, it is clear that the framers intended to create a fully sovereign entity on the international stage, with the sovereign right to do all the things sovereigns have the right to do, which is pretty much everything. Indeed, that was one of the purposes of the Constitution: to create a strong central government that could act in international matters the same as the European sovereigns. The idea of the Constitution recognizing rights of foreigners that limit the power of the federal government internationally runs wholly counter to all that.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be very careful with that snark, because it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders that what kept the USG from utilizing its intelligence to stop 9/11 was inter-agency siloing; ie, NSA and CIA not sharing information with FBI.

> "...it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders..." What sources would you recommend reading to learn more about that? The 9/11 Commission Report? I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't done much reading on inter-agency relations pre-9/11. (I hope this comment doesn't read as snark, I'm genuinely interested in learning more.)

Check out Ali Soufan's book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Banners-Against-al-Qaeda/dp/...). I'll loan you my copy if you're in the Boston area. He has had quite an interesting career. According to the book and the New Yorker, it turns out that Soufan probably would have stopped 9/11 had the proper information been shared with him. Again according to his book, he was also a major voice against the use of enhanced interrogation techniques and had the chops to back it up. The book states that he was one of the most effective interrogators of captured Al Qaeda suspects and his method essentially boiled down to serving them tea and debating the Quran with them in Arabic.

For a general idea of what the book goes into, you can see Soufan's profile in the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/10/060710fa_fact_wr.... In the (Pulitzer Prize-winning) reporter's own words: "Soufan became America’s best chance to stop the attacks of September 11th.".

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#166
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

Here's an idea: let's hold a worldwide vote on NSA spying, in the true spirit of democracy. 300mil in favor, 6.7bil against.

Why should we let non-citizens decide how we run our country?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an idea: let's hold a worldwide vote on NSA spying, in the true spirit of democracy. 300mil in favor, 6.7bil against.

Why should we let non-citizens decide how we run our country?

That's a funny thing to hear from an American

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#168
post #34

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

> I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy.

Er, no actually. Most people actually believe the NSA should keep their dirty fingers and prying eyes to themselves.

The only ones arguing differently are Americans somehow under the delusion that they are alone on this planet. Thankfully, taken on the whole they are a minority.

But go ahead, asserting that my private information should be free to be vacuumed up and abused for whatever purposes your shady intelligence organisations need.

For some reason you think there's an imaginary line to be drawn between US citizens and other human beings. You have a right to privacy, and the rest does not. Superiority much? Kind of a stupid thing to say, on an international forum, IMHO, showing your true colours, US vs "Them", etc. This is the 21st century, wouldn't you like to be able to look each other in the eye?

Joke's on you, however. Because don't for a moment believe that this shadowy government organisation "of yours" shares your ideas about how US citizens somehow have more rights to privacy than other human beings. "Stated mission" or not, they're in it for the power and money, and have done and will do anything they can get away with.

And if you'd have been paying attention instead of sitting back convincing yourself "hey at least they're fighting on my side", you might have noticed that this "moral high ground" is there for a reason. It's also sometimes called a "moral compass" for a reason, because you can use it to make right decisions when you can't know who to trust.

Snowden couldn't have leaked just one without the other either. Not to the same great effect. That's a hint right there. Because the imaginary line doesn't really exist, leaking just the "spying on US citizens" bit and not the rest, would have been so incredibly disingenuous--it's the whole Internet, silly!!--it could only have been done by someone with much less of a moral backbone than Snowden has. And then it wouldn't have gotten the exposure needed, coverage by the Guardian/Greenwald, a leftist UK paper, speaking ill of the US? Ridicule and ignore. No, it had to be the whole picture.

The rest of the world's outrage is actually helping you, you understand?

The NSA, they're not actually working for you, you understand that too? If there is any Us vs Them, we are in fact on the same side.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders..." What sources would you recommend reading to learn more about that? The 9/11 Commission Report? I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't done much reading on inter-agency relations pre-9/11. (I hope this comment doesn't read as snark, I'm genuinely interested in learning more.)

Check out Ali Soufan's book ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Banners-Against-al-Qaeda/dp/... ). I'll loan you my copy if you're in the Boston area. He has had quite an interesting career. According to the book and the New Yorker, it turns out that Soufan probably would have stopped 9/11 had the proper information been shared with him. Again according to his book, he was also a major voice against the use of enhanced…

Seconding this. Ali Soufan's book is fantastic and extremely readable.
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