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NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

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Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#151

Post by pstuart »

rayiner wrote: post #94
pstuart wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What moral ground does the United States have for directly invading the personal communications of the leaders of its allies? Ostensibly this is all about protecting the itself from danger. What is the threat posed by, say, Germany?

> What is the threat posed by, say, Germany? Well they're one of the world's major industrial powers and just a couple of generations ago they threatened to take over all of Europe. So much of the outrage over NSA spying (abroad) is predicated on this foolish idea that we live in a time outside of history, that while the West may have spent the better part of the last millennium embroiled in warfare with each other,…

I'm not naive enough to think that there are no threats in the world, nor that we can trust our allies to always have our interests in mind (ignoring the fact that "our interests" is a debatable subject).

They have a mountain of data already -- if they can't get a sense of what's going on from that then maybe they're not up to the task.

Slightly tangential anecdata: the FBI was warned about the suspicious flight school students yet they bungled the job of stopping the 9/11 attack. So what good is this comprehensive intelligence gathering if the government can't even use it properly?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#152

Post by tptacek »

pstuart wrote: post #151
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the threat posed by, say, Germany? Well they're one of the world's major industrial powers and just a couple of generations ago they threatened to take over all of Europe. So much of the outrage over NSA spying (abroad) is predicated on this foolish idea that we live in a time outside of history, that while the West may have spent the better part of the last millennium embroiled in warfare with each other,…

I'm not naive enough to think that there are no threats in the world, nor that we can trust our allies to always have our interests in mind (ignoring the fact that "our interests" is a debatable subject). They have a mountain of data already -- if they can't get a sense of what's going on from that then maybe they're not up to the task. Slightly tangential anecdata: the FBI was warned about the suspicious flight scho…

You should be very careful with that snark, because it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders that what kept the USG from utilizing its intelligence to stop 9/11 was inter-agency siloing; ie, NSA and CIA not sharing information with FBI.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#153

Post by windexh8er »

lukev wrote: post #34
Theodores wrote: post #6

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

I think you may have missed the entire point. "Everyone knows" is also not a very tactful or impressive way to argue your point - since, as included with "everyone", I fully disagree with your point. Bulk collection of metadata across "everyone" in the United States (and other unfortunate countries through collateral damage) is not OK in any way shape or form lest the constitution has recently been changed. The fact that this idea has direct ties to surveillance of foreign governments only exemplifies the point in it's weight and severity.

Your assertion that his credibility is somehow diminished based on his actions doesn't leave much room for your version of the correct way a whistleblower should go about his business properly. I'm not sure you fully grapple what this man has laid out on the line for everyone else here and has signed himself up for a life that will always be in question. Arm-chair NSA antics don't seem to justly appreciate the level at which someone has gone to great lengths to do the job fully and, IMHO, correctly.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#154

Post by sliverstorm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #149
sliverstorm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are familiar with the story of Kirk (Star Trek), and his exam at his academy? He cheats on the exam to beat an unwinnable simulation. This (well, Kirk in general) is portrayed as an example of the cowboy attitude at its best. I know it's fiction, but you want examples and those are some of the first that come to mind.

> I know it's fiction, but you want examples No, I don't want fictional examples of something posited as a loose analogy. I want an explanation of how rigid ethics would impair the effectiveness of the United States National Security Agency in fulfilling its duties under the laws and Constitution of the United States.

I have a little more time now, so;

Predecessor to the NSA-

Despite the American Black Chamber's initial success, however, it was shut down in 1929 by U.S. Secretary of State Henry L. Stimson, who defended his decision by stating that "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#Black_...

The NSA's core goal is the global monitoring, collection, decoding, translation and analysis of information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes. Achieving these things runs afoul of at least some people's ethical systems. For example, how does someone with an unshakeable belief in the sanctity of life work to bring in a double-agent (traitor) to his country (who will be executed) without facing some ethical dilemmas?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#155

Post by sliverstorm »

aplusbi wrote: post #150
sliverstorm wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why freedom of speech applies to illegal immigrants and visitors Not if we read the text: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Extracting the relevant bit: Congress shall make…

You're missing the forest for the trees, but if it will make you happy, "congress shall make no law...abridging...the right of the people peaceably to assemble". Illegal immigrants and visitors have the right to assembly because no laws may be enacted against people assembling, not just citizens assembling. And perhaps more significantly, let's look at the 14th amendment (which I really should have started with in th…

Here there is a clear distinction between citizen and person

Yes, there is. There is also a clear distinction between which persons it applies to and which it doesn't;

> ... nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#156

Post by nitrogen »

rayiner wrote: post #96
rpenm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A policy decision most Americans normally have no say in. It would never have come to public debate before the revelations.

What are you talking about? The fact of American agencies spying on the world has been well-known since at least World War II, and is the stuff of major motion pictures, etc.

There's spying in the abstract, which is known just from the existence of intelligence organizations, and there's spying on specific targets (or everybody), which hasn't been subject to public scrutiny or debate until now.

It's one thing to "know" from movies that someone is being spied on. It's another thing entirely to know from NSA documents that you and people you know are being spied on.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#157

Post by sitkack »

rayiner wrote: post #139
sitkack wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human social contract goes beyond political borders and is exactly why the powers of the government were delineated in the Constitution. What part of the Constitution says US citizens have a free press, freedom of association and freedom of speech? Short Answer: None. So if the Constitution doesn't grant those things to citizens, how can we remove them from non-citizens?

Some people believe that there is a "human social contract" or "natural rights" or some variation thereof, but it's incorrect to say that the Constitution enshrines that concept. What the Constitution says is that the rights the colonists already possessed, by virtue of long-standing practice and their status as Englishmen, were not prejudiced by the new Constitution. It's blatant historical revisionism to assert tha…

Yes, "the people" formed the United States. This isn't disputed. The entire body of the Constitution deals with limiting and delineating federal power.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#158

Post by enraged_camel »

pstuart wrote: post #38
lukev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

What moral ground does the United States have for directly invading the personal communications of the leaders of its allies? Ostensibly this is all about protecting the itself from danger. What is the threat posed by, say, Germany?

>>What is the threat posed by, say, Germany?

You picked the worst example.

Five years before Germany invaded Polland, Allied leaders held Hitler and Mussolini in very high regard and publicly praised their gentlemanly natures and leadership abilities.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#159

Post by Pengu »

Edmond wrote: post #3

Nothing in that piece to suggest Snowden was a "A Genius Among Geniuses"...on what basis does his genius rest? AFAIK there is no record of Snowden doing any kind of work out there that'll suggest he knew anything about computing security. It seems people have forgotten that there are a ton of freely available computer security tools out there that any body can take and do a lot of damage with.

adds more to the hollywood story

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#160

Post by matthudson »

tptacek wrote: post #152
pstuart wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not naive enough to think that there are no threats in the world, nor that we can trust our allies to always have our interests in mind (ignoring the fact that "our interests" is a debatable subject). They have a mountain of data already -- if they can't get a sense of what's going on from that then maybe they're not up to the task. Slightly tangential anecdata: the FBI was warned about the suspicious flight scho…

You should be very careful with that snark, because it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders that what kept the USG from utilizing its intelligence to stop 9/11 was inter-agency siloing; ie, NSA and CIA not sharing information with FBI.

> "...it is widely believed by experts and, more importantly, stakeholders..."

What sources would you recommend reading to learn more about that? The 9/11 Commission Report? I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't done much reading on inter-agency relations pre-9/11.

(I hope this comment doesn't read as snark, I'm genuinely interested in learning more.)

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