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Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

heliumhq.com

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Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#41

Post by hyp0 »

mherrmann wrote: post #35
oblio wrote: post #29

I hope you succeed with your project, but sorry, I feel that your pricing is batshit insane, pardon my French. $200 per year subscription for 1 machine for the basic license with support only for the installation, basically. And probably bugfixes, I'm guessing. If for whatever reason I'd like to create a 3-4-5 VM test farm I'd have to pay $600-$800-$1000 per year. And, again, subscription. If I don't pay after one ye…

Thank you for the honest feedback and the good wishes. Here's why we think our subscription model makes sense: In our evaluation (heliumhq.com/AutomatingGmailWithHelium.pdf), developing a script with Helium took 75% less effort (man-days) and 66% less code than a script written in pure Selenium. The average developer salary in the US in 2010 was $90k a year( http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope…

Most developers aren't scripting web interaction fulltime.

This gives you a target: in which businesses are they doing lots of it? Have some copy on your website that speaks to the managers of those specific businesses - since they are the ones who decide and pay for it.

The scenario plays out: developer is sick of testing, hears about Helium, tries it, it works great, he badgers his boss to buy it, boss looks at website, says this is fantastic, let's buy 100, he goes to the next tier of management for approval, and has all the answers for their concerns.

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#42

Post by j_s »

adambenayoun wrote: post #32

@mherrmann - There are various ways you could monetize Helium and be open source - here are a few ideas. All of them assume that you will be open sourcing your code. The reason for open sourcing this would be to basically achieve wider adoption which will in turn allow you to monetize 5-10% of your audience (Enterprise customer for example). 1. Open Core Licensing - You could create a community edition and an enterpr…

It is super-tough to find a balance... take for example the Sencha/ExtJS community where there are problems like a paid support forum that free users can't access even when their own posts are moved there after being reclassified as feature requests / bugs:

http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthread.php?269640-Why-the-Pr...

There are more examples in that forum demonstrating that while trying to appease those in need of a community edition, it's easy to wind up 'doing it wrong'.

Edit: not focusing on any particular method; just pointing out that any balance between commercial/open source can cause hard feelings and takes extra work to manage

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#43

Post by mherrmann »

Edmond wrote: post #37

I read through the comments and see you are catching a lot of flack for being closed source and daring to charge. My advice, do what you think makes sense for your company. You seem to have already done some cursory market research and I am guessing based on that you've decided on your current course of action...stick with it unless you have a good reason to change direction. Feedback is definitely important and usef…

Thanks for the realistic and encouraging words. I was beginning to feel like a bad human being for charging for my work ;-)

So you give the source code for your product to your customers, once they have bought it?

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#44

Post by mherrmann »

hyp0 wrote: post #41
mherrmann wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the honest feedback and the good wishes. Here's why we think our subscription model makes sense: In our evaluation (heliumhq.com/AutomatingGmailWithHelium.pdf), developing a script with Helium took 75% less effort (man-days) and 66% less code than a script written in pure Selenium. The average developer salary in the US in 2010 was $90k a year( http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope…

Most developers aren't scripting web interaction fulltime. This gives you a target: in which businesses are they doing lots of it? Have some copy on your website that speaks to the managers of those specific businesses - since they are the ones who decide and pay for it. The scenario plays out: developer is sick of testing, hears about Helium, tries it, it works great, he badgers his boss to buy it, boss looks at web…

Very valid points. Especially the barrier that the developer is not the one who makes the purchase decision is one we have already encountered in a previous product.

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#45

Post by adambenayoun »

mherrmann wrote: post #40
adambenayoun wrote: post #32

@mherrmann - There are various ways you could monetize Helium and be open source - here are a few ideas. All of them assume that you will be open sourcing your code. The reason for open sourcing this would be to basically achieve wider adoption which will in turn allow you to monetize 5-10% of your audience (Enterprise customer for example). 1. Open Core Licensing - You could create a community edition and an enterpr…

@adambenayoun Many thanks for all these suggestions. I see several advantages with open sourcing our product. Most notably, wider adoption and community support available on the net. Unfortunately, all three options you propose defer the point in time from which we can earn money. For a startup, this is very risky. If we run out of resources before say we have enough users to set up a SaaS service or offer support &…

Michael No need to apologize :) As another user in this thread suggested - ultimately this is your company and you'll decide what is the best course of action to turn it into a profitable business. By all means do whatever is possible to make that happen and don't be afraid to experiment.

I suggested a few ideas that could work and would basically allow you to enjoy from both world (both open sourcing your product and monetizing it) however I can understand if you think you don't have the time to get the kind of adoption you'd need to successfully open source it.

Additionally this could be done backward - you could start with your current model and at some point once you are more economically confident switch to another model that is more open source friendly.

Good luck! :)

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#46

Post by mherrmann »

egeozcan wrote: post #33
mherrmann wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious to hear which other open source frameworks "do the exact same thing". I spent hours compiling a list of competition products, and none can really offer an approach as high-level as Helium. The one that comes closest is Capybara, but it's still not quite as high-level as Helium, and only available for Ruby.

Using CasperJS, you get more or less the same. http://docs.casperjs.org/en/latest/modules/casper.html#click...

Sorry, but in the link you give (clickLabel), I still have to provide the HTML element type ("" or ""). How does CasperJS for instance let me type some text into a text field with a label to its left?

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#48

Post by adambenayoun »

j_s wrote: post #42
adambenayoun wrote: post #32

@mherrmann - There are various ways you could monetize Helium and be open source - here are a few ideas. All of them assume that you will be open sourcing your code. The reason for open sourcing this would be to basically achieve wider adoption which will in turn allow you to monetize 5-10% of your audience (Enterprise customer for example). 1. Open Core Licensing - You could create a community edition and an enterpr…

It is super-tough to find a balance... take for example the Sencha/ExtJS community where there are problems like a paid support forum that free users can't access even when their own posts are moved there after being reclassified as feature requests / bugs: http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthread.php?269640-Why-the-Pr... There are more examples in that forum demonstrating that while trying to appease those in need of…

I was actually talking about finding a balance between the community edition and an enterprise edition (see Nginx plus for example).

As far as I would be concerned, Forums should be open to everyone (paid and non-paid) customers and support provided by the community for the community.

Paid support could be additional add-ons in the forms of email and phone support with varying level of responsiveness (a-la-SLA).

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#49

Post by sogen »

adambenayoun wrote: post #48
j_s wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is super-tough to find a balance... take for example the Sencha/ExtJS community where there are problems like a paid support forum that free users can't access even when their own posts are moved there after being reclassified as feature requests / bugs: http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthread.php?269640-Why-the-Pr... There are more examples in that forum demonstrating that while trying to appease those in need of…

I was actually talking about finding a balance between the community edition and an enterprise edition (see Nginx plus for example). As far as I would be concerned, Forums should be open to everyone (paid and non-paid) customers and support provided by the community for the community. Paid support could be additional add-ons in the forms of email and phone support with varying level of responsiveness (a-la-SLA).

seconded, take Red Hat, Basecamp, Salesforce or CiviCRM as varying examples.

Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation

#50

Post by Edmond »

mherrmann wrote: post #43
Edmond wrote: post #37

I read through the comments and see you are catching a lot of flack for being closed source and daring to charge. My advice, do what you think makes sense for your company. You seem to have already done some cursory market research and I am guessing based on that you've decided on your current course of action...stick with it unless you have a good reason to change direction. Feedback is definitely important and usef…

Thanks for the realistic and encouraging words. I was beginning to feel like a bad human being for charging for my work ;-) So you give the source code for your product to your customers, once they have bought it?

Yes most of the source code is included with the product.

There is a small portion of it reserved for commercial entities, mainly the source code for our middleware, but even that will be included in the future.

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