Earlier quoted context omitted.
We quit our daytime jobs to work on this project and have to live off something... Maybe you have a suggestion as to what we could do to allow us to sustain our development in another way?
I just want to point out, however, that there are other open source frameworks that do the exact same thing. Utility libraries like this are rarely closed source because the target audience is working in code (and there are also security issues to think about). End-user products can get away with being closed source because non-coders don't give a crap about the nuts and bolts of your program. Hate to be blunt, but y…
Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
31–40 of 71 posts
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#321. Open Core Licensing - You could create a community edition and an enterprise edition. The community edition would be completely open source and available for free. While you work on the community edition you could identify the 5% of additional features that certain customers (Enterprise for example) would pay for. I think this is a pretty fair way to balance between giving away a free product and creating an enterprise/professional edition where you'd charge a license fee from customers who would have the ability to pay for it. One of the challenges with this model is to make sure you find the right balance between the community and enterprise edition since some people will be upset that certain feature aren't released in the community but make it into the enterprise edition.
2. SaaS - If you open source it and gain widespread adoption - at some point it might makes sense to create a service that allow users to run these tests on the cloud and create a complete suite of features around it. Many developers are happy to pay a service fee for using an hosted version of the open source software that allow them to not deal with hosting, patching and servicing that software. If you do that releasing it under the AGPL will give you a competitive advantage since if someone would like to create a hosted service and improve the open source software, they would have to release all changes to the community (or license a commercial version from you), however if you decide to add some secret sauce in the hosted solution, you ARE NOT required to release it to the community since you could license it under a commercial license to yourself.
3. Offer professional services, support and training - Once developers will start using this in their workflow and start being dependent on that software, they will want the peace of mind of paying for support (or the ability to contact you and ask questions). You could have various SLA of support. For examples: Community edition (FREE) would have access to community forum where users could help each other - at first you'd seed that forum with your own support to kickstart the community. Then you could offer several level of support, from email (9-5 or 24/7) to phone support to various customers. Additionally you could offer up to a certain amount of training or consulting to write custom tests for customers who will need your help integrating this into their workflow. Most often people will opt for paying for a basic license even if the software is free just so they have someone to nag and talk to if things go south.
There are more ways that you could monetize open source - if you found this reply useful and would like to learn more - feel free to reach out to adam (at) binpress (dot) com - I am the co-founder at http://www.binpress.com - the marketplace for commercial open source - we're on a mission to help developers monetize their open source projects.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just want to point out, however, that there are other open source frameworks that do the exact same thing. Utility libraries like this are rarely closed source because the target audience is working in code (and there are also security issues to think about). End-user products can get away with being closed source because non-coders don't give a crap about the nuts and bolts of your program. Hate to be blunt, but y…
I'd be curious to hear which other open source frameworks "do the exact same thing". I spent hours compiling a list of competition products, and none can really offer an approach as high-level as Helium. The one that comes closest is Capybara, but it's still not quite as high-level as Helium, and only available for Ruby.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#34A question (not meant facetiously) but what's the benefit of this over say, Capybara/webrat, which already has the click and fill_in human readable methods? The block of example code looks pretty much like an RSpec/Capybara spec, is all.
Several things. I claim it's still more high level than Capybara. And it's available for languages other than Ruby. Right now, you can download it for Python. But we'll also release bindings for (hopefully all) languages supported by Selenium.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#35I hope you succeed with your project, but sorry, I feel that your pricing is batshit insane, pardon my French. $200 per year subscription for 1 machine for the basic license with support only for the installation, basically. And probably bugfixes, I'm guessing. If for whatever reason I'd like to create a 3-4-5 VM test farm I'd have to pay $600-$800-$1000 per year. And, again, subscription. If I don't pay after one ye…
Here's why we think our subscription model makes sense: In our evaluation (heliumhq.com/AutomatingGmailWithHelium.pdf), developing a script with Helium took 75% less effort (man-days) and 66% less code than a script written in pure Selenium. The average developer salary in the US in 2010 was $90k a year(http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer...). Say this developer works 260 days a year, so makes roughly $350 a day. If it doesn't take him 75%, but only 25% less effort to write and maintain some web automation code, then each day of him working with Helium saves the company $87.5. This means that after about 11 working days, using Helium will have paid off, leaving potentially 249 more days in the year during which to reap Helium's benefits.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#36Trying to figure out what this gives me that Selenium doesn't? If I already have a large code base using Selenium why should I switch?
Good question. It can't do anything that Selenium can't, but it's a lot easier to work with. It's like developing in Assembler vs developing in C: Both are equally powerful in what they can achieve, but the former is much more technical to use than the latter. The analogy extends further: We were invited to write an article about Helium in the December issue of Professional Tester (professionaltester.com) in which we…
You're going to have some big obstacles to overcome trying to get people to pay for this versus using Selenium.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#37Feedback is definitely important and useful but take it with a grain of salt. The HN crowd is a rather biased one and doesn't really reflect the broader dev world. Maybe try attending some dev meetups where you are likely to get a more diverse opinion.
You've already quit your day job to do this, unless one of these folks is going to be paying your rent, you should absolutely focus on monetizing your product.
In terms of the open vs closed source issue, I do agree that dev products should make their source code available, but that is only so it is easy to fix problems and address security concerns. You don't have to make it "open source", as in: allow people to freely alter and redistribute. I use this same approach with my company's product, which is also a dev tool (see my profile if you want to check it out).
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a really interesting problem. There's the expectation - and desire - for all software, particularly development tools, to be open source. This seems to make it harder for independent developers to devote time to creating great tools. Is the future of software tools in the side-effects of teams at large organizations open sourcing things they needed to solve their own problems?
I agree that it's interesting and that it is a problem. You could see from mapleoin's comment that closed source software is not looked at favorably. I can see why, but as I said if we want to sustain full-time development of this project, we need an income. One approach that's often used with open source projects is to develop the software for free and then charge for consulting. But, with a tool such as Helium that…
But I'm torn. On the one hand, I support developers getting paid for creating tools/libraries (instead of working on in-house software; or consumer/business startups). I think it's better for the world. It's also how I've supported myself for the last 10 years.
On the other hand, I don't like your email-wall etc.
As I see it, you need to serve two markets: the businesses that will pay for your software; and everyone else, who won't pay, but will promote it word-of-mouth/google juice, through blog posts, stackoverflow answers, reddit/HN posts/comments etc etc etc (this is incredibly helpful for getting sales). Thus, you need to serve both, and make it both easy to buy, and easy to not buy.
1. Your email-wall is one solution. People can still get it free, they just don't like. I think it will fail (but it might work, who knows?)
2. Another way is two versions: free/community/demo and paid. Find features that matters a lot to businesses (or sounds like it), and doesn't matter to everyone else. Quotas are another way, although hard to enforce in a library (easy in a webapp), but also consider that legit businesses prefer buying over cracking. (e.g. pkzip got pirated like crazy, but the guy also made money).
3. A way to do open source is "dual-licensing": GPL + commercial. The GPL forbids closed-source distribution, so you license it to people who want to distribute it. The problem with this (I did it) is long sales-cycles, because there's no urgency for people to buy, they already have it. (they do eventually pay, it just takes a long time). Ghostscript does something similar.
But your big problem is more subtle: you have a cool idea that is truly valuable to businesses - but it's easy to implement. I think most coders here could hack a barely-working prototype within 2 hours. All it takes is one of them to publish it on github, and keep working on it for 6 months, and you're finished. It's not because theirs is better than yours - but because they will get ALL the word-of-mouth and google-juice.
Thus, you need to serve both markets. This denies oxygen to the copy-cats - why would anyone bother with that half-assed knock-off, when they can get the real thing from you? Even if someone starts a clone, it will languish without any interest or feedback. People also like to reward originators (provided it doesn't actually cost them anything...).
Another thing you can do is implement difficult features - from skimming your site, it all looks pretty easy... but if you find some obstacle that seems to kill how it should work, that's a GREAT thing. Solve it, and you have a barrier (this is what happened for me). Or as Joel said, "where there's muck there's brass".
But the most important thing for your long-term success is to realize the situation is dynamic. You have to keep improving constantly (this often means discovering new ways to improve, even when it seems there aren't any). Even if someone copies, you still have the latest and greatest. Thus, you can measure your barrier in time - how long before they catch up? Even if it's only 6 months - or even 1 month - provided yours is always significantly better, everyone (businesses and others) will prefer it. There's also some lag, that it takes for word to get out of a competitor, to build word-of-mouth/google-juice, and to convince pragmatists that it really is credible. So this "market" lead also gives you some time (probably only a few months though).
Note: even when hackers are no longer excited, businesses will still be interested - because they don't buy cool technology, they buy solutions to their problems. They don't care how sexy it is, they care if it works, and that's it. So don't be discouraged when you are no longer hot.
Finally, to address your comment directly: I agree it's a problem, for libraries especially. I think open-source + consulting is a terrible idea (unless you're a consultant - then it's fantastic publicity. But conflict with making it easy to use, so it doesn't need a consultant...).
Looking at wildly successful developer tools, they seem to be desktop tools: IDEs (JetBrains on the frontpage now); xmlspy and a bunch of xml tools. I don't know why this is (Maybe it feels like non-code to programmers, unlike a library? Maybe because it's more work, and needs GUI-skills/interest?)
I'm intrigued by the idea of "service components": library-like functionality, used through web-APIs. (In contrast, most current web-APIs access data and/or business service, not a computational service). It would sit in the cloud, next to their web-app, so it's fast - but they don't have the source, and can only access it to via the web-API. Note that libraries naturally are accessed through an API - this is just on a different machine, like a DB often is (you probably want to config the query, then run it, to minimize network traffic). Then you can do quota restrictions, like any other web-app.
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One thing though: if it doesn't work, please try a few other strategies before giving up. You have a valuable idea there.
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a matter of sound business decisions more than anything. This is a classic example of not understanding your target audience. Look at the competition: on one end, you have a flexible, open source web testing framework like CasperJS (targeted at developers); on the other hand, you have end-user oriented products like Fake.app that are paid and closed source. One could even argue that Selenium itself (also free) h…
I thank you for your honest and direct feedback. Obviously, it's very interesting for us to hear, and if you are right and we do not understand our target audience or our business model is flawed, then we have a problem that we should find out sooner rather than later. You have a lot of criticism for how we position ourselves, and our product. I deeply believe that there is a market for a tool such as Helium, be it o…
Re: Show HN: Helium - Simple web automation
#40@mherrmann - There are various ways you could monetize Helium and be open source - here are a few ideas. All of them assume that you will be open sourcing your code. The reason for open sourcing this would be to basically achieve wider adoption which will in turn allow you to monetize 5-10% of your audience (Enterprise customer for example). 1. Open Core Licensing - You could create a community edition and an enterpr…
I see several advantages with open sourcing our product. Most notably, wider adoption and community support available on the net.
Unfortunately, all three options you propose defer the point in time from which we can earn money. For a startup, this is very risky. If we run out of resources before say we have enough users to set up a SaaS service or offer support & training, we will go bust with nothing but wasted money and time on our balance sheets.
I am sorry to be so direct, but I think the three options you propose are not currently viable for us. We might revisit them later though, and I might be in touch via your email! - when we know more about the limitations of our current approach.
Thanks again! Michael