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Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

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Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#101

Post by nate_meurer »

Confusion wrote: post #99
nate_meurer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "solution" is nothing more than the "just ignore it" tripe that victims already hear enough. Framing it in big words and bullet points adds no real weight.

You are knee-jerk reacting to what you perceive as victim-blaming. I am arguing that the beliefs of people need to change for it to be possible to 'just ignore it'. So yes, the solution ultimately is 'just ignore it', but because circumstances are such that ignoring it is possible. And because that is possible, it wouldn't happen in the first place. So I'm not saying either of the women mentioned could solve their cu…

Right, I get it. Your solution is "everyone just ignore it!"

"Big words" really means "too many words" in this case. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#102

Post by vezzy-fnord »

vidarh wrote: post #96
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but she is partly at fault. What she essentially did was maintain a diary with all the raw details of her private life, only she did everything in public view. That's naive. She did not warrant what actually happened to her, but it was doubtlessly naive.

It may have been naive, but you lost me the moment you said she is "partly at fault".

She is because of her irresponsibility.

Radical feminists would make horrible information security consultants, now that I think of it. "Risk management is oppressive. Don't tell me to set up firewall rules and ACLs, tell crackers not to enumerate my services!"

Is the concept of personal responsibility and analyzing the situation really that hard to comprehend for these people? You can't just scream "YOLO, I'll do whatever I want!" and expect to be unharmed.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#103

Post by tptacek »

selmnoo wrote: post #100
tptacek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment takes pains to separate Lena Chen, who provoked her harassment (by writing a blog that the commenter disapproves of), from Kathy Sierra, who is at least pure of heart. Later downthread, the same commenter diagnoses Lena Chen as mentally ill. No, I don't think I've misread the comment.

> Later downthread, the same commenter diagnoses Lena Chen as mentally ill. Right, just like you have a habit of casually, publicly diagnosing michaelochurch as mentally ill (I think this is the fourth time I've seen you do this just in the last 2 months). Anyway, small nitpick: Lena actually did have mental illnesses. On her blog she's spoken of substance abuse, self-image issues she had, paraphilia etc.

Writing a sex blog isn't evidence of mental illness. You know what Michael O. Church meant when he wrote that she might have been mentally ill, but you pretend that his point was ambiguous, because the reality of what he said is inconvenient to your argument.

I wouldn't call my concern about him "casual".

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#104

Post by napoleond »

tptacek wrote: post #94
napoleond wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't read that the same way you did. I don't think GP was using "culture" as an excuse for anyone's behaviour; rather I read it as a suggestion that maybe in addition to personal culpability, there are cultural problems in place which perpetuate/encourage/condone bad behaviour. Doesn't sound like horseshit to me, at least not in the obvious sense which you seem to suggest. (FWIW, I might also forego the "alpha/om…

If there's a cultural problem, it's the one that suggests that having a hard time finding a date when you're 17 (or 24) is a problem that implicates all of society and can be expected to motivate a hatred of women. The person we're talking about on this thread did nothing worse than write a blog about a topic that makes certain people feel uncomfortable. In return, she was the victim of a concerted and unrelenting ca…

I think you might be letting your opinions about 'michaelochurch unfairly affect the way you parsed his comment. You have to read pretty deeply between the lines (and his mentions of "alpha"/"omega"/"Game") to get to any point about "having a hard time finding a date". What he does directly refer to is "a culture of casual sex" and although I'm far from a prude and ideologically believe that what happens in someone's bedroom is their own business, I don't think it's "horseshit" to suggest that a culture of casual sex (or even a culture which glorified that idea, without it necessarily being a reflection of the way things actually are) could negatively affect social norms with regard to male-female interactions.

I also take issue with the assumptions 'michaelochurch has made about the mental welfare of someone who is completely foreign to me (and presumably, him, and... you?) and if that was your only original issue, you should have said so. (Then again, it could be argued that you repeatedly make assumptions about his mental welfare publicly, so I guess that would have been a strange comment for you to make.)

As an aside: if we really think someone on the internet is crazy, we can nicely suggest to them one time that they may want to speak to a professional (which I know you have already done in this case, and in an admirable fashion). After that, for a foreign commenter on a message board, the remaining options are to a) engage with the content of their posts or b) ignore them. Replying to each of their comments in disagreement without actually coming up with a good reason is what I took issue with here (not that there weren't good reasons to disagree with GP, just that I didn't think you chose one) and, of course, making further commentary about them frequently also seems problematic to me.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#105

Post by vidarh »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #102
vidarh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have been naive, but you lost me the moment you said she is "partly at fault".

She is because of her irresponsibility. Radical feminists would make horrible information security consultants, now that I think of it. "Risk management is oppressive. Don't tell me to set up firewall rules and ACLs, tell crackers not to enumerate my services!" Is the concept of personal responsibility and analyzing the situation really that hard to comprehend for these people? You can't just scream "YOLO, I'll do wh…

I find it quite telling that you grasp at the "radical feminist" label instantly on being called out about assigning her blame. I'm male, and frankly tend to get on the wrong side of even quite a few moderate feminists for my views.

But I find it outright disgusting when it is somehow ok to label it as "irresponsible" for a woman to write openly about sex.

I've known many women who have written openly about sex, and while all of them have run into unpleasant situations, none of it has been so bad that I would label them as "irresponsible". Brave, perhaps. Admirably tough for sticking it out.

Frankly, while she might very well have been slightly naive, for my part I doubt I'd have expected that something like this could happen. Some of it, sure. The milder stuff. But for it to keep spiralling so out of control with no action from authorities, no.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#106

Post by tptacek »

napoleond wrote: post #104
tptacek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's a cultural problem, it's the one that suggests that having a hard time finding a date when you're 17 (or 24) is a problem that implicates all of society and can be expected to motivate a hatred of women. The person we're talking about on this thread did nothing worse than write a blog about a topic that makes certain people feel uncomfortable. In return, she was the victim of a concerted and unrelenting ca…

I think you might be letting your opinions about 'michaelochurch unfairly affect the way you parsed his comment. You have to read pretty deeply between the lines (and his mentions of "alpha"/"omega"/"Game") to get to any point about "having a hard time finding a date". What he does directly refer to is "a culture of casual sex" and although I'm far from a prude and ideologically believe that what happens in someone's…

You're right about how I'm engaging with him. I'll stop. Thanks for the sanity check.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#107

Post by feral »

michaelochurch wrote: post #63
amirmc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "But that's not the world we live in, now is it?" Neither is it the world we aspire to. Taking an attitude of 'Well, what did you expect?' Is never going to improve anything.

Ok, on that I can agree. Here's the issue. Kathy Sierra was attacked without provocation. Lena Chen used her sexuality in the public to gain attention (and, to a degree, social power). My levels of sympathy are different. Kathy Sierra was the lawful driver hit by a drunk. Lena Chen was the 120-mph speeder who ended up in a crash. Everyone speeds, and no one "deserves" to be in a crash for driving 120mph, but the laws…

(I normally avoid discussions like this on HN.)

>Lena Chen was the 120-mph speeder who ended up in a crash.

If someone is speeding 120mph and crashes, we tend to generally accept its their fault.

So the analogy implies the abuse was the victim's fault; if this wasn't intended, a different analogy might be better.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#108

Post by vidarh »

gaius wrote: post #55
selmnoo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is today 'purposely misread/ignore the point of posts and make a flippant content-less one-line reply' day or something? I'm a strong supporter of affirmative action programs, I go out of my way to get women and girls interested in programming, and I consider myself to be a feminist. I'm interested in getting results, and making practical and smart decisions for the day-by-day happenings. As for you - please stop bei…

If you were to say, don't walk through the ghetto flashing your Rolex or you might be mugged, no one would consider that a controversial statement, not a justification for mugging. It's only when sex is involved that people get a little weird.

No, it is when people makes statements that assumes we're living in a kind of environment that we refuse to accept we are living in.

And most of us are not living in places where "covering up" is a way to avoid rape.

Not least because the vast majority of rapes are date rapes, carried out by people known to the victim, not carried out by strangers. Covering up when going out is thus not advice that actually protects women in a noteworthy way.

If the intent is actually to protect women rather than to exert moralistic control over them and their sexual expression, we should expect said men to be more concerned about said women's boyfriends, spouses or other male friends, not worrying about the lengths of their skirts.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#109

Post by vidarh »

gaius wrote: post #91
aestra wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>She ran a blog called Sex and the Ivy. I'm sorry, but if you write a blog whose title says, "I'm in the most privileged 2% of the population, I have lots of sex", you're putting a target on yourself. Maybe the world shouldn't be that way, but it is. If you replace "she" with "he" then there's no issues there. No target. Please don't engage in this "she shouldn't have done that" bullshit. Its cause of assholes like y…

On the contrary, if you saw a male blogger write that, you would think "asshole". There is simply is no way to boast about your wealth and popularity, regardless of gender or orientation, without coming across as obnoxious.

You might think "asshole", but there's a giant step from thinking "asshole", and maybe even writing a blog post or comment about it somewhere, to even a tiny fraction of the level of harassment she has been subjected to.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#110

Post by FireBeyond »

chris_wot wrote: post #6

I remember when I was an administrator on Wikipedia, many years ago, there was a website called Perverted-Justice (PeeJ, I think). There was some sort of dispute about it, I can't recall what it was about. However, my online identity and a lot of other admins were accused of paedophillia. When I had pointed out that I had severely curtailed a number of people from the then "Boy Love" article (ew), they retracted it f…

Even to this day, if you go to that site from Wikipedia, they insert a page header warning you that WP is a “pedophile safe haven”...
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