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Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

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Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#91

Post by gaius »

aestra wrote: post #58
michaelochurch wrote: post #34

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

>She ran a blog called Sex and the Ivy. I'm sorry, but if you write a blog whose title says, "I'm in the most privileged 2% of the population, I have lots of sex", you're putting a target on yourself. Maybe the world shouldn't be that way, but it is. If you replace "she" with "he" then there's no issues there. No target. Please don't engage in this "she shouldn't have done that" bullshit. Its cause of assholes like y…

On the contrary, if you saw a male blogger write that, you would think "asshole". There is simply is no way to boast about your wealth and popularity, regardless of gender or orientation, without coming across as obnoxious.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#92

Post by nate_meurer »

Confusion wrote: post #87
nate_meurer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points in the post above are clearly, unambiguously directed at the victim. It's bizarre for you to claim otherwise. >" you should internalize the fact that it shouldn't matter one bit what a few random internet commentators say or think about you ." Emphasis mine, words yours. >"These are pictures of you naked. Why is that a problem?" What the fuck? That's really the cogent response I can muster to this.

It's bizarre for you to claim my points are directed at the victim, when I'm arguing that isn't my intention. My point is: if someone would have internalized that, what happened would be less of a problem. However, internalizing such things is more likely if everyone around you has internalized those things, which would already go a much longer way towards making what happened less of a problem. The train of thought…

Your "solution" is nothing more than the "just ignore it" tripe that victims already hear enough. Framing it in big words and bullet points adds no real weight.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#93

Post by scotty79 »

colanderman wrote: post #50
scotty79 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's harrasing her and her associates and defenders is probably single semi-skilled no-life. You don't need courts. You need a single decent hacker to dox the guy, order him some weed on silkroad successor and call the cops on him.

Yes, vigilante justice is a great way to solve problems.

Do you want police and courts in your internet? I don't. It's enough we have government spies and government malware here.

She was explictly told by google to sort this out herself and police ignored her. Civil lawsuit? I don't think she's rich enough to provide for all the lawers.

Besides did I say anything about justice or punishing the guy? I was talking about problem solving.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#94

Post by tptacek »

napoleond wrote: post #90
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It leads naturally to pre-monogamous, primitive, dysgenic, and in practice anti-feminist social patterns and has divided men between an "alpha" contingent who objectify and degrade women, and an "omega" contingent (cyberstalkers, doxxers) who hate them. Lots of big words, but always the same adolescent logic: "the culture" somehow prevents male nerds from dating. So it's no surprise that they abuse women. How is it t…

I didn't read that the same way you did. I don't think GP was using "culture" as an excuse for anyone's behaviour; rather I read it as a suggestion that maybe in addition to personal culpability, there are cultural problems in place which perpetuate/encourage/condone bad behaviour. Doesn't sound like horseshit to me, at least not in the obvious sense which you seem to suggest. (FWIW, I might also forego the "alpha/om…

If there's a cultural problem, it's the one that suggests that having a hard time finding a date when you're 17 (or 24) is a problem that implicates all of society and can be expected to motivate a hatred of women.

The person we're talking about on this thread did nothing worse than write a blog about a topic that makes certain people feel uncomfortable. In return, she was the victim of a concerted and unrelenting campaign of harassment. And what the commenter we're replying to has to say about this is that he thinks she might be mentally ill, and, if nothing else, surely provoked the harassment by writing. That would be a contemptible sentiment if it wasn't instead alarming evidence of a real problem within the commenter.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#95

Post by tomp »

tptacek wrote: post #66
michaelochurch wrote: post #34

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

It leads naturally to pre-monogamous, primitive, dysgenic, and in practice anti-feminist social patterns and has divided men between an "alpha" contingent who objectify and degrade women, and an "omega" contingent (cyberstalkers, doxxers) who hate them. Lots of big words, but always the same adolescent logic: "the culture" somehow prevents male nerds from dating. So it's no surprise that they abuse women. How is it t…

If you read the comment carefully again, its author is not excusing this kind of behaviour, but simply saying that he/she understands where this kind of behaviour is coming from.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#96

Post by vidarh »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #62
arrrg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice victim blaming you got going there. Always the same bullshit on HN. Like clockwork.

I'm sorry, but she is partly at fault. What she essentially did was maintain a diary with all the raw details of her private life, only she did everything in public view. That's naive. She did not warrant what actually happened to her, but it was doubtlessly naive.

It may have been naive, but you lost me the moment you said she is "partly at fault".

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#97

Post by tptacek »

tomp wrote: post #95
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It leads naturally to pre-monogamous, primitive, dysgenic, and in practice anti-feminist social patterns and has divided men between an "alpha" contingent who objectify and degrade women, and an "omega" contingent (cyberstalkers, doxxers) who hate them. Lots of big words, but always the same adolescent logic: "the culture" somehow prevents male nerds from dating. So it's no surprise that they abuse women. How is it t…

If you read the comment carefully again, its author is not excusing this kind of behaviour, but simply saying that he/she understands where this kind of behaviour is coming from.

The comment takes pains to separate Lena Chen, who provoked her harassment (by writing a blog that the commenter disapproves of), from Kathy Sierra, who is at least pure of heart. Later downthread, the same commenter diagnoses Lena Chen as mentally ill. No, I don't think I've misread the comment.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#98

Post by tomp »

tptacek wrote: post #84
RexRollman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with the OP but if that is how they feel, they have a right to state it.

That's what the people that harassed Lena Chen said! He had a "right" to say how he felt, and, as an adult, the responsibility to deal with the consequences of saying it.

Of course they have the right to say how they feel.

But if they keep saying, screaming really, for 5 years when it's not really relevant to the discussion any more and only keeps damaging her life, then it's (IMO) wrong.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#99

Post by Confusion »

nate_meurer wrote: post #92
Confusion wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bizarre for you to claim my points are directed at the victim, when I'm arguing that isn't my intention. My point is: if someone would have internalized that, what happened would be less of a problem. However, internalizing such things is more likely if everyone around you has internalized those things, which would already go a much longer way towards making what happened less of a problem. The train of thought…

Your "solution" is nothing more than the "just ignore it" tripe that victims already hear enough. Framing it in big words and bullet points adds no real weight.

You are knee-jerk reacting to what you perceive as victim-blaming. I am arguing that the beliefs of people need to change for it to be possible to 'just ignore it'. So yes, the solution ultimately is 'just ignore it', but because circumstances are such that ignoring it is possible. And because that is possible, it wouldn't happen in the first place. So I'm not saying either of the women mentioned could solve their current problem by 'ignoring it'.

Though experiment: suppose there were only three people in the world: you, a girl I vaguely knew and someone you both didn't know and didn't communicate with. In that case, the 'someone' couldn't possibly harass the girl by posting nasty online comments, because you and her just wouldn't have any reason to care. If there was a fourth, an ex-boyfriend, who posted nude picture online, but was otherwise not a threat and not being an ass, then there still needn't be any reason to care. Extrapolate to a world.

P.S. What do you consider 'big words'?

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#100

Post by selmnoo »

tptacek wrote: post #97
tomp wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the comment carefully again, its author is not excusing this kind of behaviour, but simply saying that he/she understands where this kind of behaviour is coming from.

The comment takes pains to separate Lena Chen, who provoked her harassment (by writing a blog that the commenter disapproves of), from Kathy Sierra, who is at least pure of heart. Later downthread, the same commenter diagnoses Lena Chen as mentally ill. No, I don't think I've misread the comment.

> Later downthread, the same commenter diagnoses Lena Chen as mentally ill.

Right, just like you have a habit of casually, publicly diagnosing michaelochurch as mentally ill (I think this is the fourth time I've seen you do this just in the last 2 months).

Anyway, small nitpick: Lena actually did have mental illnesses. On her blog she's spoken of substance abuse, self-image issues she had, paraphilia etc.

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