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Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

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Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#71
post #68

I think the main problem here is not that people are harassing her. The main problem is the fact that it is possible for people to be harassed in this way. There are a number of things that the people around someone have to believe for that to be possible. Beliefs that I would say are simply wrong . My main belief here is: if you care about preventing the personal misery of people like Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra, you…

Yes. If only the victims would change, everything would be OK. Silly victims.

No, primarily the people around the victim need to change. Which means beliefs in general, of everyone, need to change. That the victim would then also change is a bonus, which wouldn't even be needed anymore.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#72
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a daughter who I instruct to dress in a way that covers most of her body. Honestly, you couldn't make stuff up like this if you tried. Amazing.

Is today 'purposely misread/ignore the point of posts and make a flippant content-less one-line reply' day or something? I'm a strong supporter of affirmative action programs, I go out of my way to get women and girls interested in programming, and I consider myself to be a feminist. I'm interested in getting results, and making practical and smart decisions for the day-by-day happenings. As for you - please stop bei…

Ah ok, you're trolling - I should have realised.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#73
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If only the victims would change, everything would be OK. Silly victims.

No, primarily the people around the victim need to change. Which means beliefs in general, of everyone, need to change. That the victim would then also change is a bonus, which wouldn't even be needed anymore.

I love that this sentiment is voiced by an anonymous HN resident.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#74

> A lawsuit was always an option. Websites aren't liable for what their users do, but it’s possible to subpoena for the identity of your online harasser and haul him or her into court on civil charges like defamation or intentional infliction of emotional distress. But Chen and Hamm didn’t want to spend more time, money or energy on the problem. They just wanted it to go away. A lawsuit is precisely how you make it "…

The internet is relentless, and as soon as you hit foreign jurisdictions, you're bound to fail. Governments, the MAFIAA and dozens other organizations have tried and failed for over a decade to shut down TPB - do you really think a mere human stands the chance to ever stop the Internet from trolling her?!

This is not a well-funded industry with an engineering staff, it is a single lunatic. Subpoena a list of IP addresses from hosting companies, then subpoena the ISPs responsible for those addresses, then have the local police put the kibosh on the lunatics. Yes, it is possible that the lunatic uses a cloaked Internet connection and has flawless op-sec, but the odds are that he is just another raving schizo who can barely remember to pay the electric bill.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#75
post #30

So doing a Google search for the subject's former boyfriend (the one wrongly accused of rape, just by association with her), this Blogger post still lies as the third highest http://patrickhammscandal2.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-patrick-... It strikes me as pretty obvious link-abuse, the kind that I thought Google's algorithm would squash, but apparently not. It's good practice to own your own name and domain...but in…

"It's good practice to own your own name and domain" Good luck with that. Subdomains make that basically impossible; even large, established corporations with big branding budgets have difficulty with this. The real problem here is that people still think that if they see something written down, it must be true. People might as well be reading The Weekly World News, though the kind of harassment described here would…

> Good luck with that. Subdomains make that basically impossible; even large, established corporations with big branding budgets have difficulty with this.

It's not only anonymous harrassers causing problems - for example, I've had a few magazines (2 mainstream owned by the same outlet and 1 industry magazine) in my country campaign against my name recently, after our company pointed out illegal price fixing in the industry. Now the top google (and bing) results for my name are 2-3 such articles in magazines with otherwise decent reputation, previously my personal web page, facebook page (with 0 friends 0 comments), old university web pages and various old programming projects were the rop results. How do I "clear my name" other than being more active on the web, using my own name (I haven't bothered to blog or post stuff online for various reasons, one of them is that my personal life doesn't belong there), or hiring SEO experts to push more neutral content to the top? I guess I'll just sit it out ...

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#76
post #70

I think the main problem here is not that people are harassing her. The main problem is the fact that it is possible for people to be harassed in this way. There are a number of things that the people around someone have to believe for that to be possible. Beliefs that I would say are simply wrong . My main belief here is: if you care about preventing the personal misery of people like Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra, you…

Mr Confusion, please write here your real name, let somebody make all top Google results to your name link to always new brutal lies about you, then explain us all how you can not care too much about the opinions of random others. For the start, I'd like to know what would happen if people start down-voting your posts here, would you delete some? Would you close the account? You see, it's easier, you haven't provided…

Nobody would bother to make the top search result point to new brutal lies if my friends and potential employers wouldn't care about the top search result. Which they wouldn't if they would care less about what some random persons on the other side of the world believe. Which they should if they would properly internalize how the world works these days.

I practice what I preach. I'm constantly advocating being wary of information found on the internet. I advocate not caring about what random people think. However, this way of achieving change takes a lot of time. It doesn't prevent a new incident tomorrow or next year. But maybe in 10 years.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#77

As much as I can't stand a lot of the ultra-extremist feminists out there in the internet, this kind of behaviour (doxxing, cyberhunting) is beyond unacceptable, it's dangerous to society. Anyone who ever has engaged in "slut shaming" or whatever the current term is for hunting down/doxxing activists, please go, take a 9mm and shoot yourself. And to Google/FB: please, make it possible for victims of doxxing/cyberhunt…

What is an ultra-extreme feminist? Given that feminism is the advocation of social and political equality twixt genders, what is extreme feminism? What's the difference between social and political equality, and extreme social and political equality? How can two things that are equal be even more equal?

Sometimes feminism, as practiced by those who call themselves feminists, is the advocation of social and political equality regarding areas where women are disadvantaged, ignoring and even opposing those areas where men are disadvantaged.

Source: here's[0] the best example I've seen, skip to minute two to see a man get physically prevented from entering a talk about some men's issues. You can also watch the actual event[1] and decide for yourself if it was or was not misogynist. You can also read about Warren Farrell, the speaker, and decide for yourself if he is for or against rape.

I am a feminist by your definition, but I am also concerned with, e.g., statistically more men seem to commit suicide and thought that talk was interesting, so those feminists in the video might say I was a rape apologist.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6w1S8yrFz4

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, primarily the people around the victim need to change. Which means beliefs in general, of everyone, need to change. That the victim would then also change is a bonus, which wouldn't even be needed anymore.

I love that this sentiment is voiced by an anonymous HN resident.

I'm not yet living in the world I'm advocating.

If I were an anti-Putin Russian advocating a world in which everyone could safely use real-name accounts for their anti-Putin propaganda, you wouldn't argue that my advocacy was false or insincere, just because I was using an anonymous account, now would you?

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#79
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If only the victims would change, everything would be OK. Silly victims.

No, primarily the people around the victim need to change. Which means beliefs in general, of everyone, need to change. That the victim would then also change is a bonus, which wouldn't even be needed anymore.

Your points in the post above are clearly, unambiguously directed at the victim. It's bizarre for you to claim otherwise.

>"you should internalize the fact that it shouldn't matter one bit what a few random internet commentators say or think about you."

Emphasis mine, words yours.

>"These are pictures of you naked. Why is that a problem?"

What the fuck? That's really the cogent response I can muster to this.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#80

As much as I can't stand a lot of the ultra-extremist feminists out there in the internet, this kind of behaviour (doxxing, cyberhunting) is beyond unacceptable, it's dangerous to society. Anyone who ever has engaged in "slut shaming" or whatever the current term is for hunting down/doxxing activists, please go, take a 9mm and shoot yourself. And to Google/FB: please, make it possible for victims of doxxing/cyberhunt…

What is an ultra-extreme feminist? Given that feminism is the advocation of social and political equality twixt genders, what is extreme feminism? What's the difference between social and political equality, and extreme social and political equality? How can two things that are equal be even more equal?

> Given that feminism is the advocation of social and political equality twixt genders,

I'm afraid that isn't actually given.

That is your working definition, however, over the years there have been numerous "waves" of feminism and numerous often contradictory interpretations of what feminism and, even equality means.

Andrea Dworkin for example identified as a feminist, and is identified by some others as such, yet has written extensively about things that are far from simple equality. (Quite frankly, in some cases, anti male hate-speech)

Erin Pizzey, the founder of UK's first domestic violence shelter for women received bomb and death threats when she realised that equal protection from dv meant men should have shelters too. The self identified feminists who campaigned against her did not have the same definition of equality.

Even online dictionaries disagree with you on the meaning of feminism.

Google define feminism and you'll see that it says that it is the advocation of women's rights with respect to men.

Equality is in the definition, but what it leaves out is the acknoedgement that there are some conditions where women have significant advantage over men.

There are branches of (self proclaimed?) feminism that have different interpretations of that.

There are some branches that blame men for all the worlds woes.

Some that say a woman could never have as much privilege as a man.

The definition of feminism is so diluted as to be virtually meaningless without secondary descriptors.

What 'wave' or type of feminist? Radical? Radical trans exclusionary? Sex positive? Second wave? Third wave?

I'm sorry, I can't accept that "feminism means"

Why what about the campaign "feminism is simply the belief that women are people"?

Yet another definition.

Stienham through Paglia to Hanna Roisin (who recently declared men not equal but obsolete), feminism means a lot of things.

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