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Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

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Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#61
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's good practice to own your own name and domain" Good luck with that. Subdomains make that basically impossible; even large, established corporations with big branding budgets have difficulty with this. The real problem here is that people still think that if they see something written down, it must be true. People might as well be reading The Weekly World News, though the kind of harassment described here would…

You're absolutely spot on...the problem is that we often don't have time or motivation to challenge what we see...which is why headline-writing can so easily color opinions of an entire article body. Even in this case, even when I knew this blog post was part of a smear campaign , some reflex in me instinctively mused, "Hmm, maybe this guy is bad...look at all the words devoted to him". Now imagine any given employer…

I would rather see a system based on digital signatures, with keys tied to identities. If you are checking someone's reputation you should be able to check the identity of people who are making claims about them -- are they former employers, jilted lovers, or did they choose to remain anonymous? I want to know what former employers and coworkers have to say; I do not want to know what an ex-boyfriend masquerading as a former coworker says. If we could establish a mentality of checking for a signature from a verifiable key before assuming that a statement is true it would go a long way toward solving this problem.

Of course, this comes with problems as well. How do you verify public keys? Web of trust systems do not seem to work in practice; people do not have the time. A CA model would allow a central authority to silence people who say the wrong things by denying them verification. The system cannot be like SSH, because you need a way to verify keys from people you have not yet contacted.

I agree that search engines should be working toward a solution, but in this case that would not have been enough. This stalker went as far as sending messages to the victims' employers.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#62
post #39

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

Nice victim blaming you got going there. Always the same bullshit on HN. Like clockwork.

I'm sorry, but she is partly at fault. What she essentially did was maintain a diary with all the raw details of her private life, only she did everything in public view. That's naive. She did not warrant what actually happened to her, but it was doubtlessly naive.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just justified the attacks on her, which was the entire point of the article, saying that no attacks are justified, regardless of the situation. No. I think she was immature and probably mentally ill. Biological mental illness deserves compassion and treatment, not vitriol from anonymous cowards. I'm not saying that the attacks on her were justified. I'm saying they were predictable . I live in Baltimore. I'm in…

> "But that's not the world we live in, now is it?" Neither is it the world we aspire to. Taking an attitude of 'Well, what did you expect?' Is never going to improve anything.

Ok, on that I can agree.

Here's the issue. Kathy Sierra was attacked without provocation. Lena Chen used her sexuality in the public to gain attention (and, to a degree, social power).

My levels of sympathy are different. Kathy Sierra was the lawful driver hit by a drunk. Lena Chen was the 120-mph speeder who ended up in a crash. Everyone speeds, and no one "deserves" to be in a crash for driving 120mph, but the laws of physics are not so kind.

If we have to choose between enforcing DUI laws and redoing all our roads to make 120mph safe (which may not even be possible given the limits of most cars) then I'm going to take the former.

The "Game" culture of casual sex-- and it's important to note that it's the culture and not the sex that is so revolting; sex that isn't in other peoples' face is none of anyone else's business-- has damaged respect between the genders and proven itself to be generally toxic. The prudent thing for a young woman to do is distance herself from it entirely, date respectable men, and have a private sex life existing in the context of monogamous relationships. If you're offended by the prior sentence, then switch the genders (or extend it to gays) and note that it's equally valid. I would advise a son not to have casual sex (false rape accusations, emotional problems that can afflict both men and women, reputation risks) just as fervently as a daughter. It's just a horrible culture that is best avoided outright.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#64

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

> I don't think she deserves "slut-shaming" at this point

At exactly what point would someone deserve that? To me, the entire concept is entirely alien and I consider anyone that consider such behaviour tolerable at any point at all a big ass-hole that isn't fit for society.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#65
I think the main problem here is not that people are harassing her. The main problem is the fact that it is possible for people to be harassed in this way. There are a number of things that the people around someone have to believe for that to be possible. Beliefs that I would say are simply wrong.

My main belief here is: if you care about preventing the personal misery of people like Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra, you should not try to prevent this type of harassment with judicial or technical means. You should try to change the beliefs of people so this kind of harassment is simply not possible, which automatically results in this kind of harassment not being perpetrated (because it is pointless).

Here are some of the beliefs that are necessary ingredients for this kind of harassment to be possible:

* people are not adapted to living in a small world, where your actions can become known to, and commented on by, a vast amount of people. Given you are living in such a world, you should internalize the fact that it shouldn't matter one bit what a few random internet commentators say or think about you.

You happen to have drawn some attention and as a result not only the one lunatic in your direct environment has noticed you, but another hundred of the thousands of lunatics out there have noticed you and are vocal about that. But they are just random unknown people. They think you are a slut? Why do you care? More importantly and much more relevant to solving this: why do your friends care?

* so a reasonable concern is of course: what is the actual impact of the beliefs and statements of these unknown people on your direct environment? How many of the people you should reasonably care about have noticed? How many of those people seriously wonder whether these random people are right?

If they have noticed: people adjusted to this world wouldn't believe anything J. Random person says. They would ignore it as one set of implausible datapoints in the overload of information available these days. If anyone believes it: good to know, those people are not fit to be friends or colleagues. Someone thinks you're a slut because some random people on the internet are saying so? What kind of gullible numskull is that person? A person maladjusted to this small world.

* suppose some facts are undeniable. These are pictures of you naked. Why is that a problem? Having seen someone naked or having been seen naked should not change the way you behave towards each other. That's allowing yourself to be victimized by the puritanical standards that have become a strong factor in Western civilization over the past fifteen hundred years. If someone cares about it being possible to see you naked on the internet, then that person is at fault, not you.

* suppose some facts are really scandalous. Let's say it's evidence of a crime, but it was too long ago to prosecute. It still shouldn't matter. You aren't a few photographs or letters and anyone who believes otherwise is, again, not worth the air in his lungs. I don't care if you murdered someone thirty years ago: if you've been a decent person ever since and I have no reason to suppose you would commit such a transgression again, then I should assume you will be a decent person now.

So, tl;dr: the reason it is possible for people to be harassed in this way is because too many people care too much about opinions of random others, care too much about what other people do and commit the fundamental attribution error. Solve that and the problem goes away.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#66

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

It leads naturally to pre-monogamous, primitive, dysgenic, and in practice anti-feminist social patterns and has divided men between an "alpha" contingent who objectify and degrade women, and an "omega" contingent (cyberstalkers, doxxers) who hate them.

Lots of big words, but always the same adolescent logic: "the culture" somehow prevents male nerds from dating. So it's no surprise that they abuse women.

How is it that so many of us manage to actually grow up? Most of the male nerds I know today have families. It's because there is no such thing as an "alpha" or an "omega". Those are concepts are invented and reinvented in different contexts to let people off the hook for their own thoughts and actions. It's not about taking personal responsibility for... what, being on the same Internet as a person who wrote a sex blog? --- no, it's that they're omegas victimized by a culture that promotes Game.

Horseshit.

The problem as I see it is much simpler. Variance in human cognitive ability ensures that there will always be people damaged enough to harm others purely out of blind, undirected malice. The Internet (a) creates an affordance that makes harassing women the simplest way to do that and (b) amplifies them. You don't need a conspiracy theory about "Game" and "alphas" and "omegas" to understand what's happening; people that used to spend their lives living in their grandparents basement torturing animals for fun now spend that time doing something else online.

What I don't understand is the urge others have to rationalize their behavior.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#67
post #60

Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra shouldn't be mentioned in the same article. Kathy Sierra was attacked for being female . She did nothing that would cause people to attack her, except for being a successful woman. It was disgusting, unprovoked, and utterly wrong. Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog calle…

> Lena Chen didn't deserve what happened to her, but she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. She ran a blog called Sex and the Ivy. I'm sorry, but if you write a blog whose title says, "I'm in the most privileged 2% of the population, I have lots of sex", you're putting a target on yourself. Please don't be an asshole to people on HN.

I strongly disagree with the OP but if that is how they feel, they have a right to state it.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#68

I think the main problem here is not that people are harassing her. The main problem is the fact that it is possible for people to be harassed in this way. There are a number of things that the people around someone have to believe for that to be possible. Beliefs that I would say are simply wrong . My main belief here is: if you care about preventing the personal misery of people like Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra, you…

Yes. If only the victims would change, everything would be OK. Silly victims.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#69
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>she courted the attention in a way that a mature and psychologically sound woman wouldn't. You just justified the attacks on her, which was the entire point of the article, saying that no attacks are justified, regardless of the situation. She was studying sociology and gender theory. As a woman I appreciate it when other woman have the courage to write about their lives in public, it enriches our own understanding…

You just justified the attacks on her, which was the entire point of the article, saying that no attacks are justified, regardless of the situation. No. I think she was immature and probably mentally ill. Biological mental illness deserves compassion and treatment, not vitriol from anonymous cowards. I'm not saying that the attacks on her were justified. I'm saying they were predictable . I live in Baltimore. I'm in…

Where on earth do you get the mental illness from? Teenagers are not 'mentally ill' because they do things that older folks consider unwise. There is a difference between having different beliefs and having unhealthy beliefs.

Re: Sex, lies and the Internet: The tale of Lena Chen

#70

I think the main problem here is not that people are harassing her. The main problem is the fact that it is possible for people to be harassed in this way. There are a number of things that the people around someone have to believe for that to be possible. Beliefs that I would say are simply wrong . My main belief here is: if you care about preventing the personal misery of people like Lena Chen and Kathy Sierra, you…

Mr Confusion, please write here your real name, let somebody make all top Google results to your name link to always new brutal lies about you, then explain us all how you can not care too much about the opinions of random others.

For the start, I'd like to know what would happen if people start down-voting your posts here, would you delete some? Would you close the account? You see, it's easier, you haven't provided your real name.

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