Live data from Hacker News

Cars Kill Cities

progressivetransit.wordpress.com

121–130 of 223 posts

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#121

I walked around Tokyo marveling at the infrastructure. Fully enclosed (or perhaps 3/4 enclosed) freeways that explode out of the ground, split off to surface streets, and arch up through the sky and around corners. Well-engineered, rubberized mounting systems and the enclosure mean you only heard the faintest hint of cars rocketing by at speed. Highways branching to high-capacity, multi-lane surface streets, which fu…

I think the road infrastructure pales in comparison to the subway/rail system. The volume of people it moves is incredible. Also remember that it's all built in an earthquake-prone area!

I didn't even bother getting into the rail system, since I assume everyone realizes how advanced it is. I really wanted to put this in though: I've watched Shinkansen pull into the switchyard at night to "go to bed". It's quiet. Here's a bullet train, cruising into a rail yard pretty much in the middle of a neighborhood, idling along after midnight, and you only hear a very muffled motor as it glides by. Compare that to America, where our trains seem to be built solely to meet basic load requirements, and where they honk four times (as long or short as they want) before every crossing that's not guarded with quad-gates.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#122
post #50

If you're interested in this topic, Donald Shoup's The High Cost of Free Parking and Edward Glaeser's The Triumph of the City are both worth reading. The former explains how "free" parking isn't really free and how it distorts a lot of behavior, and the latter is about what cities are good for and how to build healthy cities in general. Personally, I wonder why people would want to own a car if they can avoid it: htt…

> The High Cost of Free Parking convince me that 800 pages is worth it (reviews so far haven't).

This is a decent, short overview of Shoup's ideas. http://www.lamag.com/features/2011/12/01/between-the-lines

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'll check that. While I got interested in urban design recently, TBH I fail to grasp all of the anti-automotive concepts that seem to get in fashion recently. Especially when I live in a place where I witness how it may go wrong. On a related note, tomorrow I'm going to "Brasilia, a day in February" as part of a doc festival we have going on around here, if you've studied urban planning you've probably heard…

Most of the anti-automotive concepts are rooted in the incompatibility of traditional cities and walkable urbanism with accommodating comfortable motoring. Unless you have infinite resources to build highways and parking deep underground, one or the other has to go. Brasilia is famous for being extensively and carefully planned according to a mistaken theory that favored motor navigation over pedestrians and uniformi…

From what I've heard from people who have been there (obviously subjective), is that although it has Niemeyer's eye candies, the overal feeling of the whole place to a newcommer is that it's creepy.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to own a car if you could avoid it? (correction applied) Because I can go wherever I want, whenever I want, with my whole family (pets included), with a trunkful of cargo, as I see fit. I keep a bunch of gear in my car which makes me pretty much independent. No way I'd be hauling "go camping on a moment's notice" stuff and other equipment everywhere on the bus. Nor would I have the basic equipment…

(correction applied) Thanks, fixed! Because I can go wherever I want, whenever I want, with my whole family (pets included), with a trunkful of cargo, as I see fit. But at very high cost, per The High Cost of Free Parking , and at high time costs: I'm struck by the way that, when I lived in Tucson, it took seemingly 30 or 40 minutes to get anywhere. Now I live in New York City and it takes about the same, but the def…

There are so many different factors in those two situations that they're barely comparable.

Yes, there are many costs associated with car ownership, and I'm sure there are some in terms of behavior that that book may describe. But depending on where you live there are also costs to not owning a car, including the inability to get anywhere, either at all or in a timely manner.

I'm looking forward to living in a city (thought not in the US) and going without for a while, but the only reason I'll try it is because I know I'm going somewhere with vastly better public transportation and in proximity to the things I need and want to do.

Living without a car makes sense for some people, in some places, in some situations. Sometimes, though, expensive or not, it just doesn't.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#125

If you're interested in this topic, Donald Shoup's The High Cost of Free Parking and Edward Glaeser's The Triumph of the City are both worth reading. The former explains how "free" parking isn't really free and how it distorts a lot of behavior, and the latter is about what cities are good for and how to build healthy cities in general. Personally, I wonder why people would want to own a car if they can avoid it: htt…

Lots of people don't want to live in a city. For me, living in a city is a horrible existence. So living in the unspoilt countryside a car is pretty useful to get around. A car is freedom. Do you really want to be completely dependent and beholden to some public transport system?

That's great but you assume that there is a choice. I want to live in a nice city, but I can't. Trillions of dollars, decades of government policies and dozen of agencies with their "homeownership" programs destroyed our cities and permanently put them at a disadvantage. My city alone lost almost 1 million people so far, where blocks with only 2 or 3 houses left standing are plentiful(this isn't even Detroit!) yet the surrounding suburbs are thriving. This didn't happen out of choice. If people like you paid the full price of suburbia or if the situation was reversed and government rewarded city living instead of suburban living then your lifestyle would change really fast.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#126

I'm genuinely curious: Here in germany we have car-sharing offers that allow you to pick up a car on the street, ride it to where you want to go and then leave it parked there in the larger cities. The fee is usually about half of the fee of a cab. Then there's the same for bicycles. The combination of public transport and car-sharing in berlin is awesome, at least in the city center: I go most ways by public transpo…

What you are describing sounds like https://www.car2go.com, which is available in some US cities.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a small business owner who sells a physical good, statements like this scare the hell out of me. You have no idea the kind of monopolization and losses of freedom implementing ideas like this would entail. Cars are democratic. They are a cheap, scaleable way of solving the problem of transportation. Kill cars, and you will destroy a lot of entrepreneurship in things that really matter. You will also be hurting tho…

Can you explain a little more? It seems on first blush that a no-cars city with good public transport and good support for walking and cycling would be much more democratic than a city where people rely on cars to get to places. Bikes are much cheaper than cars, food is much cheaper than gas. It's much cheaper to take a public transport link to a destination than to take a taxi or rent a car. It seems very counter-in…

It's hard to argue against his abstract proposition since he didnt really provide an alternative plan, but in general, there are two main factors I'd like to stress.

The first is the loss of mobility and its results. One almost universal facet of the alternatives to cars that people suggest is that they limit where you can enter and exit the system. You can't use a train to navigate to anywhere you want to go: you use it to get close and then use some other way of getting the rest of the way. Remove other transit systems, and this will effectively set property values. Want to open a store? Well, if you're an established player with easy access to capital through the investment bank that handled your last merger, than the cost of leasing or purchasing property with reasonable access via transportation is fairly easy. But if you don't, you're probably not going to be able to afford that. You're going to have to locate yourself in a far less accessible location. And the value proposition of your business now has to overcome this difference as well in addition to regular value you would offer. From a consumer standpoint, this means you have fewer alternatives. Things have to be pretty bad with your existing supplier of a good or service for you to switch if doing so is going to entail a higher inconvenience in terms of access. I saw this all the time in Chicago. People could charge a premium beyond what their higher rent would require simply because they knew that you would be reluctant to walk another 15 minutes to get to someone who was charging 10-20% less per item.

There are additional fixed costs that would go with the logistical concerns a model like this would entail. How are you going to get things to and from your business? The constructs are going to most likely favor established methods. Say we don't allow cars to drive, but we do decide that we need the infrastructure to allow 18-wheelers to get through, and you can use that method instead. Well now you need a loading dock. Now you either need to pay someone else a premium for hauling it for you or buy an 18-wheeler yourself. You can't simply use the car you were already using to commute to your day job while trying to start this new business. You can't sacrifice additional time to lower the cots. You are effectively confined to hiring other people to do it for you because of the system.

In short, it makes the system much more rigid. It leaves fewer feasible alternatives both for the consumer and the provider. It also makes barriers to entry far higher.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#128

I'm genuinely curious: Here in germany we have car-sharing offers that allow you to pick up a car on the street, ride it to where you want to go and then leave it parked there in the larger cities. The fee is usually about half of the fee of a cab. Then there's the same for bicycles. The combination of public transport and car-sharing in berlin is awesome, at least in the city center: I go most ways by public transpo…

A handful of cities in the US have in the last few years gotten a service called car2go, which is exactly what you describe. It's not available in the biggest cities, though. A few cities are also starting to have bicycle-sharing services. It's just not very common, yet.

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#129

If you're interested in this topic, Donald Shoup's The High Cost of Free Parking and Edward Glaeser's The Triumph of the City are both worth reading. The former explains how "free" parking isn't really free and how it distorts a lot of behavior, and the latter is about what cities are good for and how to build healthy cities in general. Personally, I wonder why people would want to own a car if they can avoid it: htt…

While I love Shoup's work, I'm not enthusiastic about Glaeser's work. In particular, I observe that Tokyo, Paris, Barcelona, and Mexico City organize people at adequate density to obtain all Glaeser's benefits without much of his beloved skyscrapers. Because of the shadows, streets, elevator columns, and infrastructure that skyscrapers need, they don't add much to urban life. A comfortable 15k/km^2 density (like Toky…

You make a good point but Tokyo should not be on your list of cities without many skyscrapers. It has the 5th most skyscrapers of any city in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_with_the_most_sk...

(Sorry, added the 'not', which interestingly people worked out)

Re: Cars Kill Cities

#130
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I love Shoup's work, I'm not enthusiastic about Glaeser's work. In particular, I observe that Tokyo, Paris, Barcelona, and Mexico City organize people at adequate density to obtain all Glaeser's benefits without much of his beloved skyscrapers. Because of the shadows, streets, elevator columns, and infrastructure that skyscrapers need, they don't add much to urban life. A comfortable 15k/km^2 density (like Toky…

You make a good point but Tokyo should not be on your list of cities without many skyscrapers. It has the 5th most skyscrapers of any city in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_with_the_most_sk... (Sorry, added the 'not', which interestingly people worked out)

Well, in proportion. Tokyo has almost double the population of the world's second largest city, too.

The proportion of all interior space in Tokyo above the 20th story of buildings is infinitesimal.

Post reply on HN