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The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

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111–120 of 211 posts

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#111
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish more people who eat meat would put themselves in a position to experience this. It's awesome that you took away so much respect for the animal and the process. I'd love to see that kind of awareness at scale. (full disclosure: I'm vegan)

Q: How do you know if someone is a vegan? A: THEY'LL TELL YOU. (full disclosure: married to a vegan, I couldn't resist)

As someone who is... often vegan, this happens because other people give you shit for not eating something. Usually, people notice that you say no to something that tastes good. And then they ask you why. So you tell them. And then they say something like this.

I know vegans who have resorted to just saying they have allergies, because it's easier than dealing with how poorly people treat them for simply not choosing to eat certain things.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#112
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is ever so black and white. I'd argue that there is a difference between killing an insect and killing a human. The difference, in my mind, is that we think an insect lacks the same capacity for experiencing pain. Edit: In the US, a lot of how cruelty is valued is based on how alike the animal is to us. Mammals get more attention than birds, which get more attention than fish. There is a hierarchy and I think…

> we think an insect lacks the same capacity for experiencing pain Who thinks that? Is it true or you'd just like to think it that way? It isn't even relevant. We're talking about meat here. Animals made of meat have the same capacity for experiencing pain and self-awareness. Animals want to live and try avoid death. Even mosquitoes.

We do know that insects are far, far less complicated creatures. The difference between a human brain at 100 trillion or so synapses and a fruit fly at a few million is huge. I'm simply arguing that the necessary level of complexity isn't there for a fruit fly. I'm also arguing that this is more of a continuum than a clear line.

> Animals made of meat have the same capacity for experiencing pain.

This is what I don't see as a clear and obvious truth. You shouldn't get on my case for throwing something out there without any kind of validation and then do the same thing yourself.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#113

If the suffering of animals matters, then eating meat is morally wrong. Animals are non-human persons who are aware of their own existence and who feel a wide range of emotions, just like we do. Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering t…

> Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong. Wow, wait until you watch an animal kingdom video. Your mind is about to be blown but the amount of animal on animal violence you'…

There are things animals do and you don't and there are things you do and animals don't. Does not make much sense to say you would do something because animals are doing so.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#114
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I mentioned it because the conversation is about eating meat, not because I need you to think I'm awesome. In fact, I think the joke has some very relevant truth to it. I think heralding veganism is a ridiculous mission from a practical standpoint, and lots of people and organizations are spinning their wheels converting a tiny fraction of the population to a totally meatless diet when instead it makes so much m…

I totally agree with you on every point, except for the one about heralding veganism being ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially when I look around at the average morbidly obese guy here in Northern NJ, and then go to Thanksgiving out in Michigan with my wife's family and the meat eaters are in the minority. Everyone at Thanksgiving looks amazing and healthy. I think the greater and more meanin…

> I think veganism is the logical conclusion to becoming truly aware of what you're eating, personally.

You said you're married to a vegan, suggesting you're not vegan yourself. So by you're statement you're not truly aware of what you're eating? Or are you vegan as well?

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#115

If the suffering of animals matters, then eating meat is morally wrong. Animals are non-human persons who are aware of their own existence and who feel a wide range of emotions, just like we do. Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering t…

> Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong. Wow, wait until you watch an animal kingdom video. Your mind is about to be blown but the amount of animal on animal violence you'…

Contextual's point is that there is less difference between humans and other animals than most people like to think.

It's a difficult sell, not least because humans are omnivores and by that it is natural to eat meat. But our higher level thinking allows us to reason and determine our own morals, if killing / eating other humans is wrong and animals are not that different from humans then how can killing and eating animals be right?

I sympathise with this view, but still enjoy eating meat, it's a situation that's becoming more uncomfortable all of the time.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#116
post #52

I tried to eat only expensive meat to reduce the chances that the animals it comes from are bred in conditions such as those described in the article. The idea was that naturally this would reduce the amount of meat I ate as the cost of the meal went up. Found it wasn't possible. - There were no expensive ready meal options at my local supermarket - Labeling contains no information about what kind of environment anim…

>There were no expensive ready meal options at my local supermarket - Labeling contains no information about what kind of environment animals are brought up in

I think you know why. :)

>Ultimately I wish I had the will power to turn fully vegetarian

The way I started (I'm a veggie now) is not to fully eliminate meat completely for your diet, but just 1 day a week.

The way to look at it is not that you're missing out on meat for 1 day, but as an opportunity to try out non-meat options.

Here's some suggestions: go to a middle eastern place and order falafel wraps, or tofu next time you go to a Chinese place. Also there's lots of Indian food that's veggie friendly. i.e. Indulge your palette in food that you generally wouldn't try. You might like it!

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#117

If the suffering of animals matters, then eating meat is morally wrong. Animals are non-human persons who are aware of their own existence and who feel a wide range of emotions, just like we do. Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering t…

Oh man ... flame war alert.

The reality of course, is more nuanced. Rarely do absolutist statements like "Killing animals is wrong," bare fruit in the pragmatic reality of everyday experience.

For one thing, freeing all livestock and allowing them to live as nature intended, would be releasing them into a much more savage existence. An analog to freeing slaves does not exist because people have the capacity to improve their station, while animals in the wild fall back to basic survival.

My wife and I run a backyard hog farm, raising animals on pasture with ready access to clean water and plenty of highly nutritious food. In return for the kindness we show them, at a pre-determined point in their life, we kill them and eat their meat.

I will not do that for my children, because the (mostly) tacit contract I have with them and their own capacity allows them pay back my kindness and generosity with their nuanced human emotion and industrial capacity.

Most animals do not have such an industrial capacity. Though where they do (horses, mules, etc...) there actually does exist a very different contract (i.e. we don't eat them).

The problem with your black and white view of morality is that it fails to account for the reality that if I keep 15 hogs, eventually they will die, because all life dies. If they live into old age and become emaciated and weak, their bodies are useless to me. Aside from perhaps companionship, they have not had a net positive impact on my life. Why then should I care for them?

As members of the Animal Liberation Front have discovered, releasing animals back into the wild is rarely a kindness to them. If you ever look closely at a wild rabbit, you find them swarming with parasites and usually living with chronic low-grade infection of some sort or another. Compare that with rabbits raised humanely and holistically in a small-scale rabbit farm and the differences are stark, indeed.

None of this applies, of course, to an industrial farm where animals are treated, as a phase of the end product instead of animal. But that's a whole different argument from "killing animals is wrong." I have no problem arguing that industrial farming is, at it's best, amoral, and more importantly completely unsustainable. But nature has a way of handling unsustainable behavior.

EDIT: Dairy animals would be another classification of animals that we do not kill for their meat. Of course, they do die, as one of our dairy goats did a few days ago. But then we dig a hole, say some kind words and let the decomposition feed the apple trees in our orchard.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#118
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I mentioned it because the conversation is about eating meat, not because I need you to think I'm awesome. In fact, I think the joke has some very relevant truth to it. I think heralding veganism is a ridiculous mission from a practical standpoint, and lots of people and organizations are spinning their wheels converting a tiny fraction of the population to a totally meatless diet when instead it makes so much m…

I totally agree with you on every point, except for the one about heralding veganism being ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially when I look around at the average morbidly obese guy here in Northern NJ, and then go to Thanksgiving out in Michigan with my wife's family and the meat eaters are in the minority. Everyone at Thanksgiving looks amazing and healthy. I think the greater and more meanin…

I think your anecdote is a flawed positive correlation. Your wife's family may be largely vegan, but that doesn't strictly account for their health and wellbeing vs your average obese person.

I think that their veganism is part of a broader health consciousness, where they most likely pay more attention to their nutrition and exercise than do the average "morbidly obese guy" in Northern NJ. I've no doubt that if they were to practice a similar lifestyle but include meats they would look and be equally healthy.

And for an equally anecdotal counterpoint: look up Crossfitters and the paleo diet, of which meat makes up a key proportion.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#119
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To take it to the extreme, we can't know for sure that carrots don't experience suffering due to our raising them for food. We have canines for a reason; meat is part of our evolutionary heritage. I respect the moral decision not to eat animals, and the fact that we do not raise livestock more humanely is unforgivable; but eschewing all animal proteins is extremely detrimental to one's health (the poster child being…

We have canines for a reason; meat is part of our evolutionary heritage. I'm sure that's why horses have canines, as well, but they don't eat much meat! Of course I agree with the overall point; in fact I shot a delicious young deer a few weeks ago. I sometimes wonder whether the meat-is-murder trolls aren't really just cannibals hoping to mainstream their own predilections.

Horses had canines for fighting, not for eating.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#120
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we think an insect lacks the same capacity for experiencing pain Who thinks that? Is it true or you'd just like to think it that way? It isn't even relevant. We're talking about meat here. Animals made of meat have the same capacity for experiencing pain and self-awareness. Animals want to live and try avoid death. Even mosquitoes.

We do know that insects are far, far less complicated creatures. The difference between a human brain at 100 trillion or so synapses and a fruit fly at a few million is huge. I'm simply arguing that the necessary level of complexity isn't there for a fruit fly. I'm also arguing that this is more of a continuum than a clear line. > Animals made of meat have the same capacity for experiencing pain. This is what I don't…

> This is what I don't see as a clear and obvious truth.

So their nervous system and brain pain centers (which look just like ours), the physical reaction to pain, the chemical reaction to pain (stress, releasing adrenaline...) and all the death avoidance... that's just a ploy?

I'm not sure about mosquitoes, but I'm pretty sure meaty animals do feel pain.

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