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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#211

Post by krakensden »

Spoom wrote: post #167
bluedino wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you really want to DIY a trade without a college degree, I'd recommend learning PHP or web design before I'd recommend trying to break into welding. Isn't that have the exact same 'problem', where only high-skill developers are paid $40/hour and a beginner is going to have trouble finding work and when he does it will only pay $12/hour?

As a PHP developer with just an associates degree, I can tell you that my first coding job was in fact paying $13 / hr, but roughly two years later I had enough skills to freelance at twice the rate. It has only gone up since. I think the GP was saying that the low end welding jobs have been automated out of existence; I don't think that's the case for low-end coding jobs.

> the low end welding jobs have been automated out of existence; I don't think that's the case for low-end coding jobs

I'm not so sure- it seems like times are pretty hard in the website business, which always seemed like the primary swimming pool for low end/beginning devs. Twitter + Tumblr can do a lot.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#212

Post by randomdata »

stinkytaco wrote: post #205
randomdata wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify #4? I'm actually struggling to see how my programming skills can apply to other jobs in any meaningful way outside of the realm of programming. I mean, sure, if Microsoft left Seattle today, I could probably find another software company in town to work for. However, I expect at one point in time, machinists could walk into another shop with ease too. There is no reason to believe programmers will alw…

I think that most "skilled labor" is more specialized than people realize. As a diesel mechanic I could go a lot of places (urban areas were generally out; I would need to live in the suburbs, where there were truck stops). A programmer, on the other hand, has the option to freelance, work from home, even start his own business with limited or no capital. Any company of any decent size probably hires programmers once…

A friend of mine is also a diesel mechanic. He has been freelancing for a couple of local farmers and has used that money to bootstrap his own shop. I think there are actually a lot of parallels with the opportunities programmers have.

As an added bonus, he had to learn about driving trucks, farming, etc. in order to do the job. If mechanical work suddenly disappeared, there are many things he could transition into with ease. I'm still not sure where my programming skills can be used, other than for programming. I suppose I've picked up some general computer skills by way of having to use a computer to do the job, but it seems like everyone has those skills these days.

You do bring up a good point about location though. It would be quite difficult for him to do the same in a heart of a metro area. However, the inverse is true in many ways for programmers. The opportunities for a programmer on the farm are limited compared to someone doing the same in the city.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#213

Post by m4x »

reeses wrote: post #182
m4x wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience as an electrician is that there's work available even for completely green newbies who don't know anything useful, and once you've worked for a few years and become a registered tradesman you're pretty much sorted for life. I'm not sure where you're getting these anecdotes about poor pay, high risk of injury, short careers and unstable employment. Most of the guys I work with have had long careers (ofte…

> Ironically, I actually terminated my career as a software developer because I was developing RSI and found the work rather unsatisfying (despite really enjoying programming work in general). Working as a tradesman has so far proven to be far more satisfying and far better for my health - plus it leaves me free to work on my own projects after hours rather than forcing me to leave them unfinished since I already spe…

The reason I consider it ironic in this context is that a number of people have claimed trade work is dangerous, yet the worst injury I've sustained during my career was when I wrote software for a living.

The worst case injuries are certainly worse - a switch room explosion which kills you and your colleagues on the spot is worse than RSI - but as you say we're trained to minimize those risks and most people will work their entire careers without major injury

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#214

Post by eropple »

pnathan wrote: post #180
eropple wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which (when true--lifting heavy things on a daily basis is eventually deleterious even when one uses proper technique) takes time, which reduces productivity, which isn't acceptable because money . It is economically smart to burn out people doing "hard work". And it's not like we're going to do much to help them.

Churn and burn joints trying to crank maximum effort at maximum speed do exist in the trades. My observation is that as people acquire skill, they try to avoid avoid such companies. It's simply bad quality output, bad morale, and lousy work conditions.

And that's great! It really is. Except for when you take into account all the other people who aren't so fortunate. That's why I have no real problem with the cultural aversion to that "hard work"--because somebody ends up at the bottom and being at the bottom means they get screwed.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#215

Post by taeric »

Crito wrote: post #206
taeric wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the ages of the people involved in many of these situations is a touch higher than 18. Also, beware considerations of the past. In the past, larger percentages of the population died before hitting 15 years of age.

Yes, most unemployed people are probably much older than 18. However most people making the decision to go to college, or go into various trades, are 18 or younger. That seems to be the age bracket Mike Rowe is primarily talking about.

The specific example was about a large influx of trainees into post Katrina Louisiana. That is the scenario I was mainly talking about.

The general point about kids not necessarily needing to go to college, I 100% agree with. Though, all of the numbers I've ever been shown do paint a picture that statistically you are better off doing so than not.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#216

Post by sanoli »

shubb wrote: post #123
bittercynic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pseudo-libertarian nonsense is unpleasant for me, too, but I see great value in cheer leading for blue collar work. I don't know of anyone else saying "Blue collar work is an honorable thing to do, and you're a fool to judge someone for doing it." At least no one with as high a profile as MR.

Some people do seem to genuinely look down on 'blue collar' work. Last week, my sisters friends went for a meal out to celebrate her birthday. Her boyfriend drives freight trains, and seems to get some strange attitude from her friends. They are mostly working for free while trying to break into film, or journalism. A few are teachers, which the others seem to see as 'giving up'. Yes, they are hipsters. I loved this…

This was a real conversation? Wow.

edit: Plus, driving trains doesn't seem like a bad job to me. I had a friend who drove freights in the 90's, and he really enjoyed it. Also, your sister's friend is a clueless hipster: driving freight trains was one of the dream jobs of those original hipsters, the beatniks.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#217

Post by will_work4tears »

eshvk wrote: post #62
Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparati…

I can't say about High School, as I went from there into the military, but later in life, after several years of factory/warehouse type jobs, I got fed up and went to college.

I initially went to a community college, and the guidance councillor there tried talking me out of going a Physical Therapy degree route (switched several times and ended up going CS) into a Trade direction instead. The only thing keeping me from regretting the decision is the fact that I'd never had met my current wife if I hadn't gone to university.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#218

Post by entendre »

smoyer wrote: post #197
_delirium wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas. A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay w…

Why did you limit this learning to PHP? For the motivated individual, mastery of any of the "enterprise frameworks" would do (i.e. Django, Rails, Java EE). I will admit that some job openings (or maybe companies) are much pickier, but when I see postings for a candidate with a BS but MS preferred that ask for a full-stack Java EE expert with 2-3 years of experience, I have to laugh.

Sure, let me just see if Millie has the budget for a Rails app to run her blog with a paypal button selling beads, hand blown glass lampshades, random antiques, and beanie baby collection. Because I bet she can afford a wordpress skin and some plugins. Maybe I'll even talk her into letting me install woocommerce and I can learn about payment gateways while earning about 1800$

PHP is what your neighbors can pay for.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#219

Post by Cowicide »

bmelton wrote: post #111
Cowicide wrote: post #90

>most of the Republicans I know want the same basic things as most of the Democrats I know ... They all want a healthy planet That's a crock of shit right there. Most Republicans put the almighty dollar ahead of the environment and many still think global warming or climate change effects are a hoax. Mike Rowe must live in quite the small bubble.

I'm not a Republican, but I work with mostly Republicans in some of the charities I'm associated with, and at least anecdotally, that statement seems completely unsubstantiated, and carries about as much weight as "all Republicans are racists" or "all Democrats hate the rich".

Except I didn't say "all republicans" anything.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#220

Post by bmelton »

Cowicide wrote: post #219
bmelton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Republican, but I work with mostly Republicans in some of the charities I'm associated with, and at least anecdotally, that statement seems completely unsubstantiated, and carries about as much weight as "all Republicans are racists" or "all Democrats hate the rich".

Except I didn't say "all republicans" anything.

Nor did I say that you did.
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