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David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

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Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#311

Post by rglovejoy »

johnchristopher wrote: post #14
patrickmay wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

> The problem in the US isn't capitalism, it's that the government interferes extensively in the economy. Well... maybe the problem is that the economy interferes extensively in the government. > Building a society is the responsibility of each individual who values it. Using government force in pursuit of that goal leads only to the co-option and disenfranchisement Simon complains about. Individuals have to band tog…

> Individuals have to band together to accomplish things because at some point one individual isn't enough. In democratic society such a banding, supported by the people and for the people, is called a government.

Individuals who band together to accomplish things can also be called a corporation.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#312

Post by jerf »

jjoonathan wrote: post #133
jerf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2012 US GDP was 15.68 trillion. The 2012 Federal government expenditures were 3.54 trillion. Right off the top, the Federal government accounts for 22.6% of the economic activity in the country. Depending on how you measure, you can quibble with this exact choice of numbers, but no matter how you fiddle you're not getting out of the Federal government being a huge part of the economy directly. State and local gov…

It's an often repeated libertarian mantra that the 22.6% of the US economy under state control is responsible for ~100% of the inequity. Unfortunately, the network effect ensures that a "government node" in the economic graph is always nearby, and the coplexity inherent in the system makes it easy to form a plausible argument assigning blame to any node within distance 2 or 3 of a problem, making the mantra non-falsi…

Actually, "that there's all dem inequality" is not really my point, though I'll take full responsibility for the failure to communicate. My point is more like, the government that keeps promising to save us already has tons of power. Tons of it. It's got the direct control of a fifth of the economy, massive power over the rest, etc etc, which is what I was trying to say.

My point is that if giving the government more power was going to solve all of our problems, it should have by now. We've been giving it more power. Us libertarian types are thoroughly outnumbered by conventional rightists and leftists, who both agree that the government should have more power, they just disagree what it should use it on and who should use it, but when it comes down to the compromise vote, the government almost always ends up with more power. It has been a monotonic ratchet since at least the New Deal.

We've been promised nirvana if they just have more power, and yet, lo, we've given them all this power and apparently the situation is worse than ever, if you listen to them. Is it really such a crazy idea that these two things might be connected? Is it really such a crazy idea that maybe the fact that we keep centralizing power so we can experience a less centralized power structure is a completely nonfunctional solution? One that requires a rather extensive propaganda campaign to make sure people think in the Right Way so as to avoid noticing this rather simple question?

(I note I've now posed it on HN three or four times, and I'm yet to get even a smidge of a response to it. I find this often Means Something.)

I'd suggest the sheer opprobrium shot at libertarians is itself just the dominant power structure trying to prevent you from being exposed to ideas that may result in them having less power.

(I am simplifying a bit such that power == money; it's a pretty decent approximation.)

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#313

Post by troglodie »

crassus wrote: post #213
jerf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2012 US GDP was 15.68 trillion. The 2012 Federal government expenditures were 3.54 trillion. Right off the top, the Federal government accounts for 22.6% of the economic activity in the country. Depending on how you measure, you can quibble with this exact choice of numbers, but no matter how you fiddle you're not getting out of the Federal government being a huge part of the economy directly. State and local gov…

This mirrors the argument in Albert Jay Nock's book "Our Enemy: The State" (1935). He argues that expanding government crowds out non-governmental social activity, giving the example of hurricane response. In his time he already saw the shift in the public mind from treating a disaster as a problem for the entire community to something that the government should handle. If Nock is correct, there is a darker thesis th…

>He argues that expanding government crowds out non-governmental social activity, giving the example of hurricane response

My house was ruined by Hurricane Sandy, I am grateful that our Republican governor went against the grain and backed a relief fund program.

Fuck you and your advocacy of disaster capitalism. Towns were wiped off the map, if you think the solution is a bunch of vultures looking to profit from a tragedy and not government intervention, you've been blinded by your ideology.

Here's a hint: despite locals' efforts to help one another out, all of our shit was wrecked, but we still did it. Everyone's everything was gone, we can only help ourselves so much given the fact most people didn't have a home, electricity, or running water.

We must be the domesticated humans you're going on about. What does that make you? Who benefits from such an disgusting ideology? Only people who are infinitely more wealthy than you'll ever be.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#314

Post by prodigal_erik »

crassus wrote: post #213
jerf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2012 US GDP was 15.68 trillion. The 2012 Federal government expenditures were 3.54 trillion. Right off the top, the Federal government accounts for 22.6% of the economic activity in the country. Depending on how you measure, you can quibble with this exact choice of numbers, but no matter how you fiddle you're not getting out of the Federal government being a huge part of the economy directly. State and local gov…

This mirrors the argument in Albert Jay Nock's book "Our Enemy: The State" (1935). He argues that expanding government crowds out non-governmental social activity, giving the example of hurricane response. In his time he already saw the shift in the public mind from treating a disaster as a problem for the entire community to something that the government should handle. If Nock is correct, there is a darker thesis th…

Opt-in disaster relief led to farmers burning their excess crops to force "Okies" to move on in 1935. The New Deal was a response to the age-old prevailing attitude that it's only kin you should look out for.

It's one thing to think it inappropriate for the state to ensure that disaster relief happens (even clumsily), but the idea that the private sector would otherwise be picking up the slack is unprecedented and and far from plausible. Charity has always been more a symbolic gesture than a real influence.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#315

Post by troglodie »

patcon wrote: post #147
avar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

I'm torn here. If you insist everyone make every moral choice for themselves, then we will be unable to maximize the "right" choices. For example: If I want to buy ethical foods, I'd rather shop at a place where all these criteria are enforced. It would be mind-numbingly draining to have to make all these choices myself. Frankly, I would tune out. In a libertarian society, every person would need to be educated on fo…

Libertarianism requires perfect information to be disseminated to every rational actor instantly any time anything happens ever.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#316

Post by troglodie »

SiVal wrote: post #299
justincormack wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about areas where often the only (semi) viable form of income is the drugs trade, and the education system does not work.

Yet several million people born far away in Mexico with even less education have managed to find viable forms of income in the US without resorting to the drug trade. They didn't have the same welfare system, though. Before the welfare system made housing entire communities in Baltimore the permanent responsibility of the state, the residents of those neighborhoods worked in construction and built homes for each othe…

Drug trade and cartel membership is a way of survival for many in Mexico.

Blaming welfare for the social ills that come with poverty and the lack of opportunity and resources is quite the leap in logic.

Given your demonstrated inability to process reality, why should I consider your opinions to hold any esteem?

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#317

Post by troglodie »

mmmbeer wrote: post #134
rquantz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing you don't understand: Yes, conservatives do want the poor to suffer, because they think the poor are poor because they're too lazy to work hard and overcome their poverty. Making them suffer is the only way to make them contribute to society, in their view. Also, yes, as a liberal, I do want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. That is exactly what I want to do. Wha…

> I do want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it And what give you the right to take what belongs to others?

What right do you have to build wealth off the exploitation of others?

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#318

Post by bane »

jerf wrote: post #312
jjoonathan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an often repeated libertarian mantra that the 22.6% of the US economy under state control is responsible for ~100% of the inequity. Unfortunately, the network effect ensures that a "government node" in the economic graph is always nearby, and the coplexity inherent in the system makes it easy to form a plausible argument assigning blame to any node within distance 2 or 3 of a problem, making the mantra non-falsi…

Actually, "that there's all dem inequality" is not really my point, though I'll take full responsibility for the failure to communicate. My point is more like, the government that keeps promising to save us already has tons of power. Tons of it. It's got the direct control of a fifth of the economy, massive power over the rest, etc etc, which is what I was trying to say. My point is that if giving the government more…

> My point is that if giving the government more power was going to solve all of our problems, it should have by now.

Nobody's responding to you because, most likely, if you're going to have silly notions like this, then what's the point? You've already chosen a side, presenting rational for that decision based on arguments that nobody is making.

Binary thinking does not make for even the slightest bit interesting of a debate.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#319

Post by nickff »

jjoonathan wrote: post #294
skylan_q wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians whine about arbitrary confiscation of wealth by the government, but they have no problem when competition drives the price of labor down to (or below!) the price of survivability With unemployment low, people would switch to jobs with more favorable conditions. That's one of the reasons Ford paid (relatively) much more than other employers. In a world with high unemployment, the employers dictate the con…

That's what I said. My point was that libertarians assume there is inherent justice in this situation. I don't.

Please provide your definition of "justice". Libertarians are averse to coercion, but they do not assume the results of liberty-enhancing policies will always favor their priorities. For example, I like the opera, but I do not think the government should be coercing the citizenry into subsidizing La Traviata.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#320

Post by bane »

robomartin wrote: post #203
wrongc0ntinent wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument only addresses money/economy. Your conclusion is not warranted.

Really? Without money/economy you have, I don't know, Afganistan? Like it or not prosperity isn't driven by government programs. It is driven by private sector economic activity. Unless we are talking Start Trek utopia this is how the world turns today and will continue to do so for quite some time. My conclusion is supported by fact, data and experience beyond what could be covered in a twenty line HN post. Governme…

Supply some data please.

The only "data" you've attempted to provide so far was off by a factor of around 7.

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