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David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

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Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#81

Post by scarmig »

avar wrote: post #54
scarmig wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is tiresome. Many libertarians want to enforce a very particular and ahistorical version of property rights, one dictated from above and with a studied blindness for the reason we've invented the group of rights we think of as property. They want to subject everyone to a society where state violence is used for and only on behalf of people who in the past were granted monopoly access to some material go…

What I'm pointing out really has nothing to do with libertarianism, for what it's worth it's not a political position that I personally adhere to. I'm pointing out that whatever your political leaning you don't "just" get the government involved. Even if you think you should have a larger government than you have now the question is what kind of larger government, and once you make the wrong choice there's a huge ine…

My point is this: the concept of a larger government is very murky, so we should be very careful when we're talking about it. The stereotypical libertarian will propose universal, strict enforcement of violence used to protect people to whom the State has granted monopoly access to material goods. I don't recognize that as a smaller State than someone who proposes that except annually taking some proportion of it and redistributing it.

One state may be better than the other, but it's still all pile of violence, configured in a different way.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#82

Post by justincormack »

SiVal wrote: post #70
majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

Sensible? He points at miles of Baltimore housing projects where "fathers" consider themselves responsible only for impregnating women and the state to be entirely responsible for the child after that as the fault of libertarians. Neighborhoods where everyone assumes from birth that they are permanently exempt from any responsibility for supporting themselves, because that is and always will be the state's responsibi…

You are talking about areas where often the only (semi) viable form of income is the drugs trade, and the education system does not work.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#83

Post by agilebyte »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #21
majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not? I can't agree. This is just another way to tell the world at large "you're either with us or you're against us". Posing the question is a good way to convince me that I'm against you.

To me with us means whether I care about my extended families - city, state, nation, World - and how they are doing. Not just taking the view that everybody fends for themselves alone.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#84

Post by nickff »

jpttsn wrote: post #27
majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not? I don't understand: Do you mean that to be a rhetorical question, or do you actually want to debate whether we're "all in this together?"

I believe you were being rhetorical jpttsn; but in any case, Simon assumes no one would ever debate his collectivist query.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#85

Post by rquantz »

NegativeK wrote: post #33
patrickmay wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on the political front, but I'm right with you on what we're actually debating. Hearing fellow liberals claim that conservatives want the poor and disadvantaged to suffer is like hearing conservatives say that liberals just want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. Both arguments are shitty, and both either imply that the speaker isn't listening or…

Here's the thing you don't understand: Yes, conservatives do want the poor to suffer, because they think the poor are poor because they're too lazy to work hard and overcome their poverty. Making them suffer is the only way to make them contribute to society, in their view.

Also, yes, as a liberal, I do want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. That is exactly what I want to do. What do you think social welfare is? If you only give money to people who meet some arbitrary moral standard, you aren't helping everyone who needs help. I believe in universal income, universal healthcare, universal education, universal pensions, etc, etc. It has nothing to do with deserts.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#86

Post by beachstartup »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #63
onebaddude wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps because sensible people don't consider debt, in and of itself, a serious problem.

That's fascinating. I'd love to meet the "sensible people" who believe that debt, both personal and national, is not at all implicated in the economic divide between rich and poor that David Simon speaks of.

> I'd love to meet the "sensible people"

uh, okay.

it would be better if you simply just stated your case and/or evidence because that is what HN is for.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#87

Post by chroem »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #18

It's astonishing that, in a nearly 3,000 word speech calling the United States a "horror show", the word debt is used not once.

If you're implying that we need to madly slash all government operations, I think that's pretty misguided.

We're actually running a secondary surplus right now, given that the rate of inflation is higher than the extremely low interest rates on our national debt.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#88

Post by CamperBob2 »

ant512 wrote: post #73
avar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

> Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". There are four guys in a crippled spaceship. They have 7 hours of oxygen left if they continue to breathe normally. If they all make a concerted effort to breathe slowly they could extend the oxygen to 8 hours. The rescue ship arrives in 8 hours. They are all in it together. There's nothi…

Do you have a permit from the EPA to burn all of that straw?

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#89

Post by sanderjd »

NegativeK wrote: post #33
patrickmay wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on the political front, but I'm right with you on what we're actually debating. Hearing fellow liberals claim that conservatives want the poor and disadvantaged to suffer is like hearing conservatives say that liberals just want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. Both arguments are shitty, and both either imply that the speaker isn't listening or…

Thank you for this! As someone with mostly liberal friends and mostly conservative family, the willingness of both sides to judge and belittle the other while making no effort to understand their perspective drives me batty.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#90

Post by steveklabnik »

nickff wrote: post #57
scarmig wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is tiresome. Many libertarians want to enforce a very particular and ahistorical version of property rights, one dictated from above and with a studied blindness for the reason we've invented the group of rights we think of as property. They want to subject everyone to a society where state violence is used for and only on behalf of people who in the past were granted monopoly access to some material go…

One might say that socialists want to enforce an oft repeated history of slavery and theft.

... if one was trying to grandstand and spout meaningless platitudes.
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