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David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

71–80 of 373 posts

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#71
post #2

It's hard to talk about David Simon without immediately thinking of The Wire, and I'm glad he mentioned it (he's infamously annoyed that people see it as compelling drama more than its attack against institutions, including the capitalist system): > So I'm astonished that at this late date I'm standing here and saying we might want to go back for this guy Marx that we were laughing at, if not for his prescriptions, t…

The chilling thing is the answers you get when you ask some of the more frank of the upper class in a moment of candor what should happen to the people that are no longer necessary or left behind.

Some of outliers of their solutions range from literal slavery via prison/slums, to starvation, to genocide. Worst of all answers is indifference or "God will provide". They got theirs, go fuck off and die.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#72
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

Not just the Nordic model, but even the achievements of some European countries (notably Germany) and Japan, would have been possible without US security guarantees?

Essentially the US/Nato is the main protector of Western interests, and American taxpayers ( + deficit financing ) essentially props up these 'regimes' - granted they are more democratic, and there is a great deal of autonomy than a traditional vassal states arrangements.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#73
post #28
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

> Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this".

There are four guys in a crippled spaceship. They have 7 hours of oxygen left if they continue to breathe normally. If they all make a concerted effort to breathe slowly they could extend the oxygen to 8 hours. The rescue ship arrives in 8 hours.

They are all in it together. There's nothing that can be done about that.

Now the libertarian astronaut insists that he won't be forced to change his breathing pattern. No way is he going to be forced to do anything different. He's not going to be forced to be in it with the other guys. No amount of cajoling, threatening or reasoning will get this guy to give up his "one-man island" philosophy.

But he is in it with the other guys. Sticking his head in the space-sand doesn't change the hard facts of 7 hours of oxygen and rescue in 8.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#74
The arguments about the divide in America often misses an important point - personal choice or rather the sum of many personal choices that lead one to be on either side of the divide. The fact that we have so many people in prison is driven by the fact that people break laws in the first place. Some laws might be unjust, but the vast majority are just. If you commit what society has deemed unwanted, you must be punished. This is the basic concept of social organization.

Recently, I went to see a movie "20 blocks" down the street (as the author puts it) not thinking one bit that it might be a bad idea. I won't bore you with details, but in the end, I was assaulted just for asking someone not to speak loudly during the movie... How is this normal? Am I to blame for this anyway, just because I am white and of upper-middle income?!

This is the reason I cannot buy in to the fact that capital is to blame for all evils. Personal choice and degradation of moral values is what is the tragedy of the West and the world. In all facets of our society, we have chosen to ignore the basics that we understand to be good. These moral principles have nothing to do with wealth. If we remember these and act on them, the balance will be restored.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#75
post #58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

> The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. That's the kind of facile, juvenile argument the OP decries in this article. To make an analogy, I could equally say, "I shouldn't be forced to be in a family. Families are great and everything, but w…

> You're an American (or a Canadian or a Briton or whatever). You are part of a society and part of a nation whether you like it or not. So let's make it work for everyone.

Regardless of which lines one did not to choose to be drawn around them, not everyone has an affinity for them, and if history is any example of such, blood will be drawn for those to fight for their will to reconstruct such lines to their choosing…

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps because sensible people don't consider debt, in and of itself, a serious problem.

That's fascinating. I'd love to meet the "sensible people" who believe that debt, both personal and national, is not at all implicated in the economic divide between rich and poor that David Simon speaks of.

Consumer debt and the increase of public lotteries are the schemes that allow inequality to exist as long as it has. Take them away and you take away hope.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#77

When I see arguments like this one, I always remember the little known fact that Adam Smith was a moral philosopher before he wrote about economics. A fundamental principle for capitalism is that people will behave morally and be compassionate. Without a moral society, no matter what system you're talking about, that society will always collapse. I think David Simon, and many other modern critics of capitalism, have…

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

Back in high school I had one of the standard required classes on Government, the majority of which I've since forgotten. But there was one bit which has stuck with me in the years since. The teacher drew a box on the board and put the label "government" inside it. He then drew a much larger box around it, which he labeled "economic system". This illustrated two things I think are fairly important - first, that the government is a small piece of the economic system overall, and second, that attempts by the government to interfere with the economic system would have a much bigger return effect on the government.

For an example, lets say the government bans the use of some inexpensive material in building houses due to health concerns, requiring companies to use some more expensive material instead. This has a direct economic impact on those construction companies, which, when you consider them all as one group, would add up to something significant. These companies in their efforts to make money could now do two things: use the new material, costing them x, or spend money lobbying to repeal the change, costing y. It seems almost inevitable that the money it takes to repeal the law will be cheaper - because the government (or, at least, the relevant portions) are effectively fighting against not one or two companies but an entire economic sector. This case naturally grows worse against sectors that are large/concentrated/powerful, such as finance and medical (which in my view would be the reason it is so difficult to have serious financial reform - even after a disastrous crash like 08).

But there's something more to be taken from this, I think - and that's that the economic system we have does not place value on health, or safety, or environment. Capitalism encourages a very "not my problem" attitude. Got a factory putting contaminants in a river? Not my problem. Worker loses his arm using dangerous machinery? Not my problem. An efficient and rational actor in a capitalist system doesn't worry about these things. This is where you get tragedy of the commons type effects, where someone (or people) seeking to maximize personal gain - as you should, under a capitalist system - damage or ruin something not just for themselves but for everyone.

In short, this idea that "Building a society is the responsibility of each individual who values it" runs directly contrary to the principles of capitalism, near as I can tell. I would be interested in hearing why/how this is not the case.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#78
And that's what The Wire was about basically, it was about people who were worth less and who were no longer necessary, as maybe 10 or 15% of my country is no longer necessary to the operation of the economy.

I wish more people would write about the so-called employment to population ratio as opposed to the new claims for unemployment model. Not as a metric of who's freeloading but as a metric of who's able to have skin in the game.

His 10 to 15% number may well be conservative.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#79
post #58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

> The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. That's the kind of facile, juvenile argument the OP decries in this article. To make an analogy, I could equally say, "I shouldn't be forced to be in a family. Families are great and everything, but w…

This is kind of a funny analogy, perhaps better than you realized. Families and governments compete directly with each other for power over society. The English-speaking countries are way, way out on the government end of the continuum; here, you don't have to be in a family if it's not to your taste. Compared to the rest of the world, Americans, Canadians, and Britons already have only the most tenuous connection to their families anyway.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#80
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not? I can't agree. This is just another way to tell the world at large "you're either with us or you're against us". Posing the question is a good way to convince me that I'm against you.

When the someone questions my resolve, I question their aims.
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