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An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

theguardian.com

21–30 of 65 posts

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just steal documents from governments and publish them without any consequences. Erm, why ? What's your reasoning here beyond "but the laaaaaaw"? Do you even have any moral reasoning backing that?

So you'd be fine with someone stealing data the government holds on your, say your medical records, and publishing them on the front page would you? Maybe your last few tax returns. May as well publish those as well! How about state secrets on any weak parts of military defences? Yes I have moral reasoning. It's stolen information.

(I'm going to ignore your presumption that information can somehow be "stolen" in any meaningful sense, but you really ought to explore that notion further.)

For your first two examples (my medical records and tax records), that is personal information which is limited utility to others. By contrast, the state "secrets" here directly impact the day-to-day lives of thousands if not millions.

Your third example is exactly something that would be beneficial to know--any enemy presumably already knows about it, and keeping it secret from the public at large only serves to allow the people who should be working on it to function without oversight.

As for the actual information being leaked: that is not personal information; a good chunk of it is operations details for state security apparatus, and that's exactly something that I, a citizen, would prefer to know about.

With such great resources at its disposal and so much power at its beck and call, we simply cannot afford to allow the government any secrecy or opacity in its functioning. To do otherwise is to encourage the sorts of corruption and corrosion that turn a state into a horrendous place to live.

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd be fine with someone stealing data the government holds on your, say your medical records, and publishing them on the front page would you? Maybe your last few tax returns. May as well publish those as well! How about state secrets on any weak parts of military defences? Yes I have moral reasoning. It's stolen information.

There is a reason we have a public interest defence - the Guardian believes that it is in the public interest that these documents and their implications are made public, discussed and changes made to our security services. I agree, but I see why others do not - but I ask you, how would we have the debate without the leaks and without the defence? If there is a way, please tell me.

I trust my government to do the right thing. I don't think we have an awful problem in the UK with corrupt greedy government abusing its power in the main.

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you supposed to deal legally with your government doing something bad, when it is illegal for you to know about the bad things? Just think about your proposition for even ten seconds.

Just think about your proposition for ten seconds. You're suggesting that the entire government is corrupt, and covering up 'something bad'? There are endless systems of checks, balances, and disclosure within our government. Sorry, I don't buy the conspiracy theories, endless theoretical debates about what the government "could" do with data it has. It's moot.

It is the government's own claim that, for example, the President didn't know what the NSA was doing:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopped-w...

In the absence of leaks and whistleblowing, how do you propose that this kind of power be reined in?

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd be fine with someone stealing data the government holds on your, say your medical records, and publishing them on the front page would you? Maybe your last few tax returns. May as well publish those as well! How about state secrets on any weak parts of military defences? Yes I have moral reasoning. It's stolen information.

(I'm going to ignore your presumption that information can somehow be "stolen" in any meaningful sense, but you really ought to explore that notion further.) For your first two examples (my medical records and tax records), that is personal information which is limited utility to others. By contrast, the state "secrets" here directly impact the day-to-day lives of thousands if not millions. Your third example is exac…

Well, agree to disagree. It would be a far worse place to live where newspapers are allowed to break laws "in the interest of public interest".

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel their reporting is "reckless"? Do you believe that the Guardian's reporting has reduced GCHQ's ability to protect UK citizens? If so, do you have any evidence to support this belief?

Yes I do believe that, and it's what the heads of GCHQ MI5 etc told the government when they were asked that question.

"because the people on trial said so" does not really constitute evidence.

(not that they are in any real way on trial mind, they got to vet and prepare for every question before hand.)

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

booyaa00: I think it's also funny that some people are under the delusion that sites like this and reddit, are actually controlled by the 'voters', and that everyone has the same power. They're not. They're controlled by editors who will place items where they want to. For me, the worst part of hacker news is the silent banning if you are critical of any YC funded startup. Censorship is ugly, but it happens routinely…

No. It's totally different. This is not about censorship. Newspapers can say what the hell they want. Unless they obtained that information via illegal means - which The Guardian did. They are absolutely the same as the phone hacking papers.

I would be careful with putting so much emphasis on legality. The fact is that there are so many laws, and some of them are so weird and convoluted, and nobody really understands them all; pretty much everyone does several illegal things every day without even realizing it:

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/...

Under these kinds of conditions, if someone in an appropriate branch of government wants to nail you for any reason, they can. Especially now that widespread spying makes it much easier to identify specific transgressions.

So I am not so sure why you would take such a hard line on legality when in fact such a stance is just waiting to come back and bite you (and everyone).

... In fact, now it is the government's position that there are SECRET LAWS that you can be violating but not even know why you are violating them; they can arrest you and not tell you exactly why they arrested you, because the reason is secret. How are you supposed to engage in strictly legal behavior when you don't even know what is legal and what is illegal?

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#28
post #10
post #5

I know this will be unpopular here, but personally, I would like to see the Guardian prosecuted for its reckless reporting of stolen information in the same way that phone hacking was dealt with. You can't just steal documents from governments and publish them without any consequences. If your government is doing something bad, then it should be dealt with legally, and via the established checks and balances. Newspap…

> You can't just steal documents from governments and publish them without any consequences. I'd draw the line: You can steal documents and publish them, if they reveal that the government has acted against the laws, or unconstitutionally. Basically if you're breaking the law to reveal that someone else has broken the law in order of magnitude worse way, then it's ok.

I'd agree. But in this case, the claim from GCHQ etc is that they have acted fully within the law.

The guardian just loves anti-government stories, bashing anyone in power.

Look at the "expenses scandal". The Guardian was all over it! Publishing pointless details of how an MP claimed £5 for a taxi to a restaurant.

The inquiry into the "expenses scandal" cost more to the tax payer than the entire amount of expenses given to MPs! What the hell was the point of that then?!

It would be good if people recognised how biased The Guardian is. It has an agenda, and searches out the stories which will further it.

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#29
post #5

I know this will be unpopular here, but personally, I would like to see the Guardian prosecuted for its reckless reporting of stolen information in the same way that phone hacking was dealt with. You can't just steal documents from governments and publish them without any consequences. If your government is doing something bad, then it should be dealt with legally, and via the established checks and balances. Newspap…

The established checks and balances failed. There is a very good reason that journalists often have special protection in a free society: when they do their job, they help to bring balance to what might otherwise be unchecked government power.

Re: An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm going to ignore your presumption that information can somehow be "stolen" in any meaningful sense, but you really ought to explore that notion further.) For your first two examples (my medical records and tax records), that is personal information which is limited utility to others. By contrast, the state "secrets" here directly impact the day-to-day lives of thousands if not millions. Your third example is exac…

Well, agree to disagree. It would be a far worse place to live where newspapers are allowed to break laws "in the interest of public interest".

I hope you can realize your dream of starting a new live in the utopia of China, Russia, or North Korea...
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