Live data from Hacker News

David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

231–240 of 373 posts

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your attitude is just the point. There are many issues with your stories, and many points at which they may go different ways. To give a single example, if I understand correctly, people disrespected you at a movie theater for asking them to quiet down. If I may... did you ask them to quiet down in a respectful fashion? Don't answer. Just think about your own behavior towards them and TRY to evaluate it in an hon…

In other words: * If a minority assaults you, you must be to blame, and don't even try to argue otherwise. * Don't learn from your own experience, learn from respected academics.

Not hardly.

The lessons are:

* If you assault a minority... don't be surprised if s/he assaults you.

(My point is... we only have one side of that story... so we can draw no conclusions as to what happened. Maybe it's not necessary for you, but I would like to know from the other side WHY the minority assaults a person before I draw conclusions. Kind of why I laid out multiple options of what may be necessary depending on what happened.)

and

* DO learn from your own experiences... but DON'T expect society to take on $40K a year obligations to make your experiences pleasant.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to say that Lenin and Mao were bad clinicians, if only there was a messiah smart enough to implement communism. In spite of the fact that plenty of other governments gave it a try too. Truth is, Lenin and even Stalin were pretty smart guys and they implemented communism the way it was meant to be . Actually, a guy predicted the Lenin/Stalin way would be the end-result for any communism implementation. The…

It does sound familiar, I'm (often) an anarchist. You do realize individualist anarchists (like Tucker) are still socialists, yes? And Tucker still subscribes to the labor theory of value? > so much has been proven wrong. Sigh. > The argument that the value of a commodity is only related to the labor needed to produce or obtain that commodity and not to other factors is now well known to be wrong. You're absolutely r…

> It does sound familiar, I'm (often) an anarchist. You do realize individualist anarchists (like Tucker) are still socialists, yes? And Tucker still subscribes to the labor theory of value?

Not really, he was an individualist anarchist that supported private property and a free market economy. He wanted some limitations on land property but all considered he was more of a libertarian than anything else.

> You're criticizing Smith or Ricardo here, just like Marx is.

Nope, Smith says that the theory is only true in a primitive society, not in advanced ones where the value includes the cost of means of productions to the owner and the risks taken by the owner. Marx omits the fact that not paying entrepreneurs extra for the risk they take will take away the incentive to take those risks in the first place and turn a country where no one has an incentive to work and creates scarcity as productivity decreases. This has happened in every communist society that has tried these Marxists policies.

You're young and marxist, I was there too once :) Try to read a bit more of Locke, Leoni, de Jouvenel, Spencer, JB Say, Bastiat, von Mises, Hayek etc. I'm sure you'll get there too, it's a long and hard road to get out of Marxism way of viewing things, I know, I'm French, good luck to you.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#233
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. That's the kind of facile, juvenile argument the OP decries in this article. To make an analogy, I could equally say, "I shouldn't be forced to be in a family. Families are great and everything, but w…

> You're an American (or a Canadian or a Briton or whatever). You are part of a society and part of a nation whether you like it or not. So let's make it work for everyone. Regardless of which lines one did not to choose to be drawn around them, not everyone has an affinity for them, and if history is any example of such, blood will be drawn for those to fight for their will to reconstruct such lines to their choosin…

>Regardless of which lines one did not to choose to be drawn around them, not everyone has an affinity for them

Yes -- there are always selfish pricks, who think that they should have a say in if they'd have affinity to their family or society or fellow humans.

It's like seeing a child drowning and saying, "well, I don't know this kid or feel anything for this, so why should I do anything to help it?" -- instead of just jumping in just cause it's a fellow human.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did make a claim. The claim is that without specifically defining force and initiation, the NAP is useless. You re-asserted a particular definition, and said 'think about it.' I don't find that to be particularly convincing.

>> The claim is that without specifically defining force and initiation, the NAP is useless And I pointed out that you don't really need any specific definitions for "force" or "initiation" (and that bickering about the definitions for everyday words is a bullshit distraction). But suppose "force" meant "violence or coercion", and "to initiate" meant "to start " (there's no real confusion about that, at least). With…

> With these definitions, what's your problem with the NAP?

Those aren't definitions.

Is it force for someone to own a gun? Is it force for someone to reveal that they're carrying a gun? Is it force for someone to draw a gun? Is it force for someone to fire a warning shot? Is it force for someone to point a gun?

Is it initiation for someone to attack a third party? Is it initiation for someone to attack a friend?

Is it force to covet your property? Is it force to touch your property? Is it force to enter your property? Is it force to illegitimately acquire your property? Is it force to manipulate your property? Is it force to develop your property's uses?

Is it initiation for someone to threaten you? Is it initiation for someone to threaten you abstractly? Is it initiation for someone to threaten your property? Is it initiation for someone to threaten your friends?

That's off the top of my head. Gimme a bit, and I'll "think about it".

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#235
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You have to some how get the markets to stop chasing profits There is another solution. You could set up the markets so that the way to maximize profits is to create the best solution. For example, imagine if we had a perfect measure of student outcome. You could make the school's pay dependent on their outcome, then the market will find a way to maximize the f(outcome)/cost.

What do we need the market for then?

To minimize cost. A better example than education would be carbon emissions. Suppose we want to reduce our carbon emission to X tons per year. If we auction off X credits permitting 1 ton of carbon each, the market will find the cheapest way to reduce our emissions to X. Simply being able to measure emissions would allow us to reduce emissions (say, by requiring all companies to reduce by Y%), however, this is almost defiantly going to be more expansive.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Appealing to the Constitution isn't really a valid line of argument, though. I disagree. Right or wrong, it is the document against which we supposedly make all laws. I'm not suggesting that we appeal to it as it is , rather, appeal to its defined measures for ensuring that it is kept current. Put simply, in football, they have a rule book. That rule book is what we consult on matters of the rules. Sometimes they g…

> The Constitution, in theory at least, should work as a bulwark ensuring that minority opinions are upheld. That's not what pluralism is. The key is in ensuring that minority opinions are heard and reasonably considered , not "upheld". > They have equal rights because they are people, and deserving of equal rights, regardless of their or others' morals. And yet, that's not actually what the Constitution says. Nothin…

> That's not what pluralism is. The key is in ensuring that minority opinions are heard and reasonably considered, not "upheld".

I disagree, but only slightly. Civil liberties are upheld on Constitutionality, on strict (or in today's society, intermediate) scrutiny. This means that the rights of minorities are to be upheld, unless there's a really damn good reason why they shouldn't be. Religious freedom is held fairly paramount in this country, but if I established a religion that allowed me to kill others, it would not be, because of its conflict in relation to the rights of others; it wouldn't uphold even strict scrutiny. However, in regards to gay marriage, the Winstead case was upheld because the state could not even issue plausibility of a rational basis for why the rights of gays should be curtailed. In short, it didn't harm anyone, and as such, the state could not curtail her civil liberties on grounds of Constitutionality.

> Nothing in the Constitution actually says that people have equal rights.

The fourteenth amendment says exactly that, actually. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

> That's why, when they tried to write an amendment to ban gay marriage, they didn't have to include any deletions, because it would have contradicted nothing.

That's not really why. I've got another very long argument on here about this subject, but in short, the legal theory behind that is implied repeal, or "leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant", which means that newer laws supersede older laws where they conflict with each other. As a result, a new amendment needn't specifically repeal a prior provision of the Constitution to have full weight.

> Gays should have rights because we say they should, and if the Constitution doesn't, then maybe it fucking should.

I disagree that it doesn't, but if it should (and I agree that it should), there's a ratification process for that, which means that it can.

> Your error is that you think moral opinion is static.

Respectfully, I disagree there completely.

> but the last several years have been full of "LOOK! GAY PEOPLE ARE NOT EVIL! ISNT THAT GREAT!"

And the problem is that the Constitution has been inequally applied for so long that we even had to. It should have been de facto applied as a matter of course that of course they have the right to marry. The problem is that, for too long, people weren't advocating for gay rights because they had moral objection to homosexuality. Whether or not someone is uncomfortable with someone else's sex life should not give them the authority to disallow them from exercising that behavior in whatever they see fit.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point (as I read it) isn't that the Constitution as written is sacrosanct, but that it is extremely useful to have a document whose rules are 1) executed as closely as possible in the present, and 2) changeable in the future. Otherwise there are no rules, and people are just making things up as they go. I tend to agree that this is the situation we currently find ourselves in, but I think a lot of the blame for i…

That is indeed exactly what I meant. That said, I think the difficulty found in the amendment process is an indicator that the founders intended the government to move far more slowly than it does, which leads one to believe they wanted less laws than more. Just an opinion there, but it is (I think) a fairly well supported one.

I think you're probably right about the founders intentions, but I think they were wrong about the speed at which government should be able to move. It's not an easy balance, and there is a real danger of government being too reactive, but I think (like you, just an opinion) that the Constitution is too far the other way for our current society.

edit: wording

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The founders intended" isn't a valid line of argument. Well, it is though. That isn't to suggest that it's the definitive argument or standard to be held to, but it's definitely valid . Justices sitting on the Supreme Court agree, though not all of them. There are definitely competing beliefs, but just saying that isn't valid doesn't invalidate it. Regardless of whether we agree that it should be the prevailing th…

> Justices sitting on the Supreme Court agree, though not all of them. Are you the person I previously had a discussion about originalism with on here? I linked Posner for someone a month or two ago; might have been you. /does search Yeah. We didn't come to any agreement. :P

Was it me? Link me. I don't remember it.

Just so it's said, neither of us has to be right for our opinions to be equally valid. And regardless of whether or not we agree, originalism certainly has validity in arguments of law, we're just disagreeing with whether or not it should be the standard we hold highest.

I'm not saying that necessarily we should.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#239
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing you don't understand: Yes, conservatives do want the poor to suffer, because they think the poor are poor because they're too lazy to work hard and overcome their poverty. Making them suffer is the only way to make them contribute to society, in their view. Also, yes, as a liberal, I do want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. That is exactly what I want to do. Wha…

> I do want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it And what give you the right to take what belongs to others?

Nobody. But in the end, the disadvantaged will give themselves that right of their own accord if they have nothing left to lose.

Why do you think poor people resort to crime? They've made the calculation, and as far as they are concerned, that is their best option at the moment.

It should be in everyone's interest to at least provide the poorest members of our society with enough support so that they don't get that desperate.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The claim is that without specifically defining force and initiation, the NAP is useless And I pointed out that you don't really need any specific definitions for "force" or "initiation" (and that bickering about the definitions for everyday words is a bullshit distraction). But suppose "force" meant "violence or coercion", and "to initiate" meant "to start " (there's no real confusion about that, at least). With…

> With these definitions, what's your problem with the NAP? Those aren't definitions. Is it force for someone to own a gun? Is it force for someone to reveal that they're carrying a gun? Is it force for someone to draw a gun? Is it force for someone to fire a warning shot? Is it force for someone to point a gun? Is it initiation for someone to attack a third party? Is it initiation for someone to attack a friend? Is…

As I mentioned already, it's certainly possible to complicate things to no end. But what exactly do you think you've accomplished with this message, besides prompting me to refute bullshit distractions?

>> Is it force for someone to own a gun?

Is it force for you to own shoes?

>> Is it force for someone to reveal that they're carrying a gun?

Is it force for someone to reveal they're not wearing a bra? No, it's not. Coercion requires an intent, a choice, and an action. Why are you flashing a gun? -Has someone just threatened to attack you? -Or have you just demanded money from someone?

>> Is it force for someone to draw a gun? Is it force for someone to fire a warning shot? Is it force for someone to point a gun?

Intent, intent, intent, etc.

>> Is it initiation for someone to attack a third party? Is it initiation for someone to attack a friend? Is it initiation for someone to attack you?

Of course. The one who attacks, ie. initiates, is the aggressor.

>> Is it force to covet your property?

Is it force to covet a woman?

>> Is it force to touch your property?

Is it force to touch a person?

>> Is it force to enter your property?

Is it force to enter Wal-Mart?

>> Is it force to illegitimately acquire your property?

I don't think so. But it depends on stuff.

>> Is it force to manipulate your property?

Is it force to open a door?

>> Is it force to develop your property's uses?

What do you even mean? .. Oh, but don't actually answer that. I have a feeling we're not about to get anywhere in this discussion.

Post reply on HN