Live data from Hacker News

David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

151–160 of 373 posts

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#151
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? If anything, we've seen how people can corrupt and ruin any system/society. When many people say "capitalism has failed us" they really mean our politicians have failed us by allowing corporations to run the government. That's not a failure of capitalism, that's our failure because we've let our elected representatives do this to us.

Because it's based on the idea of exponential growth. Exponential growth is not sustainable without exponential growing access to resources.

> Because it's based on the idea of exponential growth.

Except it isn't. It's based on the expectation that the market will allocate resources based on factors like supply/demand.

We focus on growth because it's a human tendency to always want more. Has nothing to do with capitalism.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#152
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not? I think this question is frankly naïve. Humans have functional limitations on how much we can care about other people, aka Dunbar's number. This is not something you can improve (maybe by .0001%) or create policy around, it's a hard limit. The fact that, at least in the United States, virtually everyone live…

That's not what Dunbar's Number means.

Dunbar's Number is "a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships."

Having a social relationship with someone != caring about their fate.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#153
post #61

Very good speech and an important national dialog to spark. I'd like to call attention to one thing though: "I don't believe that a state-run economy can be as viable as market capitalism in producing mass wealth." This demonstrates a basic confusion that we Americans have about ourselves, even most "lefties" and "libertarians": The false belief that we live in a free market economy. The truth is, the state plays a m…

This pseudo-libertarian confusion is largely due to the neoliberalist movement >1970s, where the government touted laissez-faire markets as the ultimate goal - with the caveat it needs a little bit of state intervention to protect all of us from the downsides of capitalism.

This was implemented quite effectively and was largely based on legitimate economics. But it has a giant flaw in implementation: the state intervention part over time becomes a tool for those with power and not for the entire representative population, from where it draws power to intervene.

For example, take economic stimulation during recessions, which are often the only time direct economic corrections happens for the average person. The goal is to increase "consumer spending" during downward market trends. Meaning the continued purchase of things they don't really need (new cars, houses, and bank loans). Revenue keeps flowing to the large organizations who would often be hit the hardest during recessions. Plus a few special organizations get direct bailouts from a central bank.

We're told in the long run this is better than a complete recession/depression and we'll recover faster. If we just hold on and keep spending, things will get back to normal and everyone in the economy benefits. But if you look at it from a higher-level, the top-end of the market is easily the biggest beneficiary of this policy, while consumers are largely still left with very little ability for upward mobility.

The same trend exists in almost all state interventions. Those who come out on top as the result of the policy are almost always those already at the top. It is neither the invisible-hand of free markets nor equal-distribution of state power at work.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#154
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profits ~= value of product - resources consumed There is nothing wrong with firms making profits, it is a sign of efficiency, and a sign of where resources should be allocated; with time, the least efficient firms are eliminated, and only those which create the most value at the lowest cost remain. The problem is that the product (and its value) may not reflect the objective(s) of the policymakers and the public, an…

Easier said than done. I think it's probable that some problems are so difficult to translate into proper market motivations that the cost of the perverse incentives inevitably produced by your attempts will consistently exceed the potential for increased efficiency and miraculous innovation that the market promises.

You are neglecting to examine the counter-factual. The current system is abound with perverse incentives and flaws. As to the difficulty of designing a new system; we have thrown money at a poorly designed system for many years with little success, perhaps a redesign would be worth it.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#155
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2012 US GDP was 15.68 trillion. The 2012 Federal government expenditures were 3.54 trillion. Right off the top, the Federal government accounts for 22.6% of the economic activity in the country. Depending on how you measure, you can quibble with this exact choice of numbers, but no matter how you fiddle you're not getting out of the Federal government being a huge part of the economy directly. State and local gov…

It's an often repeated libertarian mantra that the 22.6% of the US economy under state control is responsible for ~100% of the inequity. Unfortunately, the network effect ensures that a "government node" in the economic graph is always nearby, and the coplexity inherent in the system makes it easy to form a plausible argument assigning blame to any node within distance 2 or 3 of a problem, making the mantra non-falsi…

22.6% of the US economy under state control is responsible for ~100% of the inequity.

Inflation has a compounding effect of screwing the poor and transferring that wealth to the rich. It shouldn't be surprising that in 1970 Nixon unpegged the dollar and let inflation float and since 1973 the income inequality in this country has gradually become unhinged.

we keep giving more power to fewer people under the rubric of "better government", and, lo and behold, our society has ever more power and wealth concentrating in fewer and fewer hands. Why, oh why ever could it be.

Rich and wealthy liberal economists keep prescribing more government(which they may or may not realize contributed to their cupidity) to 'help out the poor' with 'stimulus' (which gets subcontracted to politically connected, wealthy people - did we not just throw 650 millon dollars at already-rich people to build a broken healthcare website?), while stabbing them in the back with inflation

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#156
post #70
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

Sensible? He points at miles of Baltimore housing projects where "fathers" consider themselves responsible only for impregnating women and the state to be entirely responsible for the child after that as the fault of libertarians. Neighborhoods where everyone assumes from birth that they are permanently exempt from any responsibility for supporting themselves, because that is and always will be the state's responsibi…

Where exactly does he say that?

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem in the US isn't capitalism, it's that the government interferes extensively in the economy. Well... maybe the problem is that the economy interferes extensively in the government. > Building a society is the responsibility of each individual who values it. Using government force in pursuit of that goal leads only to the co-option and disenfranchisement Simon complains about. Individuals have to band tog…

> In democratic society such a banding, supported by the people and for the people, is called a government. Only when the people banding together claim a monopoly on the use of force to achieve their goals. This is exactly the distinction that Bastiat describes.

I'll assume you live in the US: doesn't your constitution grant you the rights to bear arms and didn't one of the founder said it's the people's duty to throw away the government when it gets corrupted ?

On a more "scholar" note there is the notion that a leviathan is needed.

Moreover, I think private companies and individuals can be as violent, or more, than any government that claim monopoly on its use.

Be it physically or symbolically.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#158
The article mentions Marx as useful for diagnosis but not for prescription and then seems to make the same mistake. The problem with political science is that it isn't a science. It has certain language to express complex social systems but it sucks at prescription. We can look at the ravaged path produced by a complex dynamic system and attribute some apparent motivations and maybe we're kinda right but it's still very difficult to then start making causative statements. And still more difficult to endeavor to engineer such a system to a certain end.

It isn't just answering, "what are we really trying to solve"? Or "how are we going to solve it"? The problem is that there isn't just one question or one answer. There are hundreds of possible questions, and then you have to agree on a answer in theory, and then you have to agree on a implementation, and then you have to have a system that is capable of the implementation. It's madness and there is no evidence we have a political system that is capable of such feats.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#159
post #61

Very good speech and an important national dialog to spark. I'd like to call attention to one thing though: "I don't believe that a state-run economy can be as viable as market capitalism in producing mass wealth." This demonstrates a basic confusion that we Americans have about ourselves, even most "lefties" and "libertarians": The false belief that we live in a free market economy. The truth is, the state plays a m…

Actually this was the one statement that was correct in the entire article.

I don't deny that the government plays an important role in funding science and tech, which in turn is essential for silicon valley. But it is still completely wrong to characterize Silicon Valley as "state-sponsored investment". Take Google. The original algorithm was developed at Stanford, but it didn't involve any fancy math that required a DARPA grant. The founders came up with the idea of using commodity hardware for servers. All the other technologies they later built (MapReduce, BigTable, etc.) were the company's own inventions, involving no help from outside sources.

Similar things can be said for Apple, Microsoft and also much of the Open Source movement.

The fact that the government played some role does not mean all the value generated really belongs to the government.

And in case anyone was tempted to make some false assumptions about my viewpoint, I'm not arguing that there should be no redistribution of wealth. I'm just arguing that claiming that we don't live in a market economy is wrong, and a poor basis for arguing for redistribution of wealth.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#160

Already, there's deeply untrue parts of this: We don't really know why the US emerged on top after WWII. There wasn't an A/B test that proves it. An argument can easily be made that the US came out ahead because it was the largest country which hadn't been substantially bombed and/or invaded. It's not well founded to say it was because the US was a mix of capitalism and socialism. There's not enough evidence for that…

An argument can easily be made that the US came out ahead because it was the largest country which hadn't been substantially bombed and/or invaded.

Until this guy's speech, it hadn't occurred to me that anyone made any argument but that one. Despite the lack of A/B testing, it's seemed obvious to me, although I'd lump in reserve status for the dollar, and a couple of other political things that—again—the US were able to force through thanks to being last man standing after WWII is a huge force in US prosperity since WWII.

Post reply on HN