Live data from Hacker News

David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

61–70 of 373 posts

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#61
Very good speech and an important national dialog to spark. I'd like to call attention to one thing though:

"I don't believe that a state-run economy can be as viable as market capitalism in producing mass wealth."

This demonstrates a basic confusion that we Americans have about ourselves, even most "lefties" and "libertarians": The false belief that we live in a free market economy.

The truth is, the state plays a massive role in our economy.

This is especially true for us Silicon Valley entrepreneurial Americans. Because the government's hand is especially strong in high tech.

The Internet. Microcomputers. Lasers. Jets. Robots. Siri. You name a major high-tech innovation, and it's probably got DARPA or NASA behind it in the earliest, highest-risk, most capital-intensive stages. Look again and you'll probably find lots more government support in bringing the technology to market through procurement.

This is all the more damning for our system's poverty. The rich and powerful are fully in favor of a strong, powerful state-run economy that serves their needs. That's why it's done under the rubric of military spending -- "we have to spend trillions of taxpayer dollars on this because we have to defend ourselves" sounds better than "because we need it to produce the Silicon Valley economic miracle."

Because the latter would suggest it's fair to direct major taxpayer support for other economic investments like education, health care and housing.

Instead, the state-supported rich and powerful can claim we live in a "free market economy" that just happens to have trillions of state-sponsored investment, for them.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#62
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

We have that in the US, its called Massachusetts. Ever notice how no one argues for the European model?

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#63

It's astonishing that, in a nearly 3,000 word speech calling the United States a "horror show", the word debt is used not once.

Perhaps because sensible people don't consider debt, in and of itself, a serious problem.

That's fascinating.

I'd love to meet the "sensible people" who believe that debt, both personal and national, is not at all implicated in the economic divide between rich and poor that David Simon speaks of.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#65

The tragedy of the successful capitalistic societies like the USA is the lack of first hand experience with socialism (and communism) will eventually result in the masses wanting to try it out. Believe me, it's the worst thing what can happen with your country. It happened around here, and it takes generations to recover. Don't try it, even if it looks morally right.

Some degree of socialism has always been a part of the system here, despite it being a dirty word. If you are from an ex-communist country, you might have had the opposite experience, where (before 89) Marx's solutions were gospel, and even if implemented to the letter, you still had the problems of corruption and major outside political influence from the U.S.S.R.. "Socialism" and "communism" are inextricably linked in those parts of Europe, and now toxic ideas because of their painful history.

The speech is partly about degrees and dropping the hypocrisy, not advocating Marxist solutions.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#66
post #13
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was a good speech, but because it was so emotional, and not rational. In fact, he was dismissive of any arguments as anything other than his own. To call all other forms of thought juvenile, and simply say "we are either together or not" sounds like the content of a great political speech, not a well articulated debate.

O, if only he had linked to the Mises Institute a few more times!

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make, but for what it's worth, while agreeing with lots of the speech, I found myself thinking that it was pretty good opinion, but not a great argument.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#67
post #54
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is tiresome. Many libertarians want to enforce a very particular and ahistorical version of property rights, one dictated from above and with a studied blindness for the reason we've invented the group of rights we think of as property. They want to subject everyone to a society where state violence is used for and only on behalf of people who in the past were granted monopoly access to some material go…

What I'm pointing out really has nothing to do with libertarianism, for what it's worth it's not a political position that I personally adhere to. I'm pointing out that whatever your political leaning you don't "just" get the government involved. Even if you think you should have a larger government than you have now the question is what kind of larger government, and once you make the wrong choice there's a huge ine…

> Even if you think you should have a larger government than you have now the question is what kind of larger government, and once you make the wrong choice there's a huge inertia in the system that makes correcting that choice very hard.

To quote Theodore Roosevelt,

> The citizen must have high ideals, and yet he must be able to achieve them in practical fashion. No permanent good comes from aspirations so lofty that they have grown fantastic and have become impossible and indeed undesirable to realize. The impractical visionary is far less often the guide and precursor than he is the embittered foe of the real reformer, of the man who, with stumblings and shortcoming, yet does in some shape, in practical fashion, give effect to the hopes and desires of those who strive for better things. Woe to the empty phrase-maker, to the empty idealist, who, instead of making ready the ground for the man of action, turns against him when he appears and hampers him when he does work! Moreover, the preacher of ideals must remember how sorry and contemptible is the figure which he will cut, how great the damage that he will do, if he does not himself, in his own life, strive measurably to realize the ideals that he preaches for others. Let him remember also that the worth of the ideal must be largely determined by the success with which it can in practice be realized. We should abhor the so-called "practical" men whose practicality assumes the shape of that peculiar baseness which finds its expression in disbelief in morality and decency, in disregard of high standards of living and conduct. Such a creature is the worst enemy of the body of politic. But only less desirable as a citizen is his nominal opponent and real ally, the man of fantastic vision who makes the impossible better forever the enemy of the possible good.

tldr: don't make perfect the enemy of good. This comes several paragraphs after the famous "Man in the Arena" bit.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#68
> I think Marx was a much better diagnostician than he was a clinician.

That is a hell of a way to put it, and I totally agree. His basic framework of social relations (I am probably butchering terms here, please forgive me) seems basically right to me the older I get, though like Simon, I don't necessarily agree with his proposed solutions.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#69
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop chasing profits then there is no incentive to produce a quality product. The US public schools are a great example of that.

But are profits the best way to measure a "quality product" when it comes to something like education? I would argue not, or at least that externalized costs need to be internalized somehow (regulation or taxation are the typical means). That is to say, if we have for profit public schools, I'd want their profits to be tied to the long term effects of results of their students, not to yearly test scores.

>if we have for profit public schools, I'd want their profits to be tied to the long term effects of results of their students, not to yearly test scores.

This is a great idea! Why not do the same for government-run schoolteachers? This may help attract and retain high quality staff, as well as providing low-skilled teachers an incentive to leave.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#70
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

Sensible? He points at miles of Baltimore housing projects where "fathers" consider themselves responsible only for impregnating women and the state to be entirely responsible for the child after that as the fault of libertarians. Neighborhoods where everyone assumes from birth that they are permanently exempt from any responsibility for supporting themselves, because that is and always will be the state's responsibility, and are free to spend every day doing what they feel like, are blamed on libertarian ideas.
Post reply on HN