A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe • Hacker News Board

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#101

Post by wyclif » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:53 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #85

mjn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into this a bit for the University of California system, and that did indeed seem to be the issue in that case. Tuition has gone up, but less than state funding has gone down. In other words, the university is getting cheaper to operate on a per-student basis, but nonetheless getting more expensive to attend, because of a large shift in who pays (from taxpayers to students). The historical public funding lev…

You can look at british uni's for another data point, though. It all has to do with demand, not the cost base. Uni's were free, but seeing how much the 'stupid americans' were paying (thanks to leverage), the UK started to reduce grants to 'tap into the damand', and they now purposefully issue debt to students as a from of highly targeted TAX. The demand comes from the 'social marker' heuristic that a university degr…

but seeing how much the 'stupid americans' were paying

What an amusing and inaccurate stereotype. Brits who repeat it have apparently never been to the further reaches of England. For example, Birmingham or Liverpool... See how stereotyping isn't helpful?

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#102

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:54 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #72

bittercynic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pseudo-libertarian nonsense is unpleasant for me, too, but I see great value in cheer leading for blue collar work. I don't know of anyone else saying "Blue collar work is an honorable thing to do, and you're a fool to judge someone for doing it." At least no one with as high a profile as MR.

I don't see him as touting anything right-wing, IMO - he is touting the 'Don't demonize the opposition' idea, a worthy one at that. He also advocates market solutions, which in many cases solve problems with a whole lot less effort and in a 'cleaner' (read less complex) way - for example, the CAFE standards versus just raising the taxes on gas, both would accomplish the same goals of increasing fuel economy for cars…

[deleted]

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#103

Post by Cowicide » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

Mike Rowe continuously spouts on a "skills gap" but doesn't seem to know anything about "job lock".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_lock

He keep avoiding the topic of health care in the USA several times in the Q&A. Frankly, I think Rowe is out of his league here and doesn't understand that we need a true single payer system for health care:

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#104

Post by randomdata » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:56 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #33

ryandrake wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

This is a terrible analogy; If I were a Java programmer who was unemployed, struggling to find any job at all, I would take your shitty $10/hr programming job in a heartbeat. Of course I am not under/un-employed, so I have the luxury of telling you to take your shitty job offering and shove it. Your little scenario seems absurd to all of us because we all know that there are plenty of far better programming jobs avai…

There are better programming jobs out there precisely because there are fewer capable programmers than there are jobs. If we had more programmers than jobs, you would be looking at the $10/hr job right now, because if you didn't take it, someone else would jump all over it.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#105

Post by avrilkiki » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:57 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #96

drakeandrews wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2: I happen to believe that people should be entitled to education, healthcare, safety and respect. #3: There are certainly bad jobs. Jobs where the employer does not pay, abuses their workforce etc. #5: Debt you cannot afford? Sure. But sometimes debt is useful. A mortgage or a business loan for example. #6: Safety is everyone's responsibility. It's all well and good that you behave well but if Bill decides he does…

I read Mike's list and it filled me with ferver and the desire to stand up and make my life better. I read you list and it made me want to sit on my butt and mope.

You're been raised on Horatio Alger myths.

You've read Paul Graham's essays that exhort you to throw away your youth to work for him, in exchange for a lottery ticket.

Your mind is a collection of lies, and facing this can be depressing.

Or you can try to bolster the lies, you can pretend really hard that the lies are real, you can be inspired to place yourself in an economically vulnerable situation where your boss will likely economically abuse you.

You can be filled with fervor and stand up and make your life better... by sacrificing your body to enrich lazy bosses who don't give a shit about you, your health, your life, your family, your future.

You can stand up and buckle down to 60 hour work weeks until your body has been used up, at which point you can look forward to a life on the couch taking painkillers.

Look buddy--just because it makes you temporarily inspired doesn't mean it's good. What's the reasonable response to current economic conditions? Economic conditions where Wall Street and the 0.1% get greedily rich by just siphoning off the wealth of the country--not to mention crashing the economy. A country where the rich get rich not by "hard work" but by writing inspiring speeches to get suckers to do hard work.

This is just the world, bro. And the appropriate response to such a world is feelings of depression. And then after feelings of depression, feelings of fervor... not to be an economically abused slave, but to stand up with fervor and a desire to make ALL of our lives better, and to OVERTHROW the capitalist system that places us all in subservience.

The fervor that this should drive us to is a fervor to guillotine the 1% and take their money. As soon as the 99% realizes it can vote itself more money, all our problems will be solved. But the 99% right now seems only to be inspired by calls to slavery, not calls to freedom. The 1% have no compunction about voting themselves more money, or tricking you to vote them more money. Why are the 99% such fucking idiots that calls to slavery inspire them but calls to revolution don't?

Basically, fuck you for being an easily manipulated tool. You are what is wrong with the world.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#106

Post by msandford » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 9:59 PM UTC

drig wrote: post #53

Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

I kind of choked on his message of tolerance. We says we should stop talking about how we disagree, then he goes on a tirade against all the lazy, spoiled, stupid people. "We shouldn't disagree on party, but, if you don't agree with me and the GOP, you're a stupid, lazy slob!" He writes very well, but he's still spouting right-wing, pseudo-libertarian nonsense.

He actually criticizes both Democrats and Republicans. I don't think it's fair to say that he was a strong representative of the GOP.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#107

Post by wyclif » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

eshvk wrote: post #64

bittercynic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pseudo-libertarian nonsense is unpleasant for me, too, but I see great value in cheer leading for blue collar work. I don't know of anyone else saying "Blue collar work is an honorable thing to do, and you're a fool to judge someone for doing it." At least no one with as high a profile as MR.

Exactly. One thing that always gets me annoyed about immigration debates is about how there exist so many jobs that Americans are "unwilling to do". Why? Why is there a stigma against certain jobs? If it is a question of a living wage, surely, those immigrants who are taking up those jobs are making a "living" with those wages.

One reason why is because Americans are more atomised culturally than people from, say, Mexico or Guatamala. Americans believe that you should live independently after you graduate from HS (or else go to college) and don't generally want to live in a home with multiple families or even the same family consisting of multiple generations under a single roof.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#108

Post by randomdata » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 10:11 PM UTC

alayne wrote: post #88

I don't buy the arguments that trade jobs are a good option. It's especially hard to swallow from a college graduate who belongs to an anti-union political party. Unless you are unwilling or unable to go to college, the numbers indicate that, on average, you will have much lower unemployment and a substantially higher lifetime income.

Markets still remain supply and demand driven. Industries that have roots in college educations have appeared more stable because the number of people with degrees has historically been relatively low. When we have more educated people than jobs that benefit from such an education, incomes will drop and it will become difficult to find work.

The trades are starting to gain appeal right now because people have put more emphasis on getting a college degree in the past decade or so. That leaves fewer people able to take on trade work, which pushes for higher incomes and better jobs to the people who can. At the same time, college educated people are finding it increasingly difficult to find meaningful employment.

Of course, if people follow Rowe's track in the future, it will swing back the other way again soon enough. That is why smart investors go to where nobody is showing interest.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#109

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 10:14 PM UTC

al2o3cr wrote: post #98

"In the next few years, this company anticipates 15,000 new openings for welders and pipe-fitters in the southeast. And the head of recruitment has absolutely no idea where the workers will come from. That should scare us all." Oh FFS. If the company can't find 15k workers perhaps they should consider raising wages. Mr. Rowe's show has clearly demonstrated that no matter how unpleasant 99% of the world might find a p…

Yes, I was disappointed in Mike Rowe that be basically wrote off the whole problem as people not willing to do hard work. Everyone is willing to do hard, physical labor where you risk handicapping yourself for life...it just has to pay comparatively well to office jobs.

Then again, people around the world are competing for the same jobs nowadays, and obviously those with lower standards of living are going to do them for much cheaper, and all those manual labor technical jobs that don't require a mastery of English are going to go to China until the living standards equalize.

Bottom line is make sure someone in a poor country can't do your job (probably an intellectual, specialized, English speaking job), otherwise be willing to compete with China.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#110

Post by 001sky » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 10:15 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #101

001sky wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at british uni's for another data point, though. It all has to do with demand, not the cost base. Uni's were free, but seeing how much the 'stupid americans' were paying (thanks to leverage), the UK started to reduce grants to 'tap into the damand', and they now purposefully issue debt to students as a from of highly targeted TAX. The demand comes from the 'social marker' heuristic that a university degr…

but seeing how much the 'stupid americans' were paying What an amusing and inaccurate stereotype. Brits who repeat it have apparently never been to the further reaches of England. For example, Birmingham or Liverpool... See how stereotyping isn't helpful?

Easy there...Its not in 'inverted commas' for nothing. After all, the point is that the Brits copied the US model because the 'thought they were onto something'. Also, It may help to note that the UK previously a policy of charging US students 3x cost prior to the increase in fees. Which seemed like a deal only a crazy person would take.[1] But...The US/other foreign students were still paying 1/2 price vs what the US-based schools cost, hence they viewed the 3x cost as a bargain. So, the Brits might pay $5K, the US would pay $15K and the North American Uni's would charge $30K. Theat is, notwithsatnding, the US students were paying 10x in their home country for the same services. After the changes, the UK students may pay about $15-20K pa, closer to what they charged the non EU people before. And the others (non-locals) are paying double that, much closer native costs for them. And thus a no-arbitrage position.

[1] There is a long history of "fleecing" rich foreign kids at schools, where they are looked at as cash cows. This is both true in the US (where they pay 'retail' with no financial aid) and in places like the UK/EU where locals are heavily subsidized.