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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#41
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, because the US has an increasingly unequal income distribution, that makes a college degree relatively more valuable. In addition to the social-status factor it certainly still seems to pay off despite the increased tuition ( http://priceonomics.com/is-college-worth-it/ ). My point is simply that maybe college costs so much more now because it's just worth it. It used to be that you could still do alright witho…

His whole point at the end is that there are millions of well paying benefitted jobs that are available without a college education.

I'm not going to doubt that... I'm just saying there must be some underlying economic reason why that's true. Seems that things are in an equilibrium, but maybe not the optimal one (blasphemy, I know).

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#42

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

While it's true that tuition is a larger source of revenue than it used to be, most of that increase can't be explained by falling subsidies.

According to this http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?submeasure=68... total inflation-adjusted revenue per student went from $5,846 in 1991 to $11,016 in 2011.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#43
He's spot on.

We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on.

The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. We need vocational training, we need training for non white collar career options, and no one is really working on it. I make a salary of that of a skilled professional - with no formal education beyond high school - it's been a long fight to get here though, perhaps it could have been easier otherwise. The other problem with the current college education program is a lack of correlation between cost and outcome, it's something that needs to be looked into.

He also hits on a point - the government doesnt create jobs, so it doesnt matter what congress does, or what the president does, its the job of the government to create a stable environment (regulatory and otherwise) so the economy can go and create jobs. I believe our government is largely failing at this.

On to the skills gap - I disagree with him on one point, companies are largely unwilling to train - there are jobs for which I'm broadly qualified for, but can't get because I'm missing one specialized skill or another for. If companies were willing to train, they would be able to fill most of those unfilled jobs.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#44

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

I'm curious what part of that pledge you think is non-sensical.

I couldn't care less about the warm words in that pledge. I'm fearful of the mindset of the person that wrote it.

We all fancy the "meritocracy" mindset, but we can't just ignore that there are very, very important factors at play (your gender, the color of your skin, your upbringing, the wealth of your family, the social standing of your family..) that determine a persons success regardless of their conduct, determination or other internal factors.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#45
post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas.

A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay well; they simply don't exist. Only high-skill welding work is in demand, and a beginning welder is very likely to be unemployed. He or she might try to get free work to improve, but even that is iffy. I'm not convinced the odds are actually better here than the (already not great) liberal-arts degree -> unpaid internship -> office job route. If you really want to DIY a trade without a college degree, I'd recommend learning PHP or web design before I'd recommend trying to break into welding. Or learn something about CNC machines and get a job servicing the machines that replaced those low-end trade jobs...

I looked into this at some point out of personal interest, and really the numbers don't bear it out. There are a lot of anecdotes about how we "need skilled tradesmen", but the pay and jobs just aren't there. When you take into account the lack of training opportunities, the high risk of injury, the generally short careers, and the unstable unemployment, the expected earnings from taking up a trade are much worse than just getting a college degree.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His whole point at the end is that there are millions of well paying benefitted jobs that are available without a college education.

I'm not going to doubt that... I'm just saying there must be some underlying economic reason why that's true. Seems that things are in an equilibrium, but maybe not the optimal one (blasphemy, I know).

It's okay, so long as people behave rationally equilibrium will come ;).

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#47

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

#1 and #2 are a bit conservative and nationalistic, but I see nothing wrong with the rest. Basically the summary: "I love America, and am lucky to live here. I'm going to work hard, because hard work is the path to success. Lazy people suck." OMG! Tea bagger!

Not really seeing the problem with #2, but #3 has me mad. There are plenty of bad jobs that wear down your body and mind while offering subsistence or below-subsistence wage, and offer no or false hopes for advancement.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#48
post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

re: training - are your skills white collar or blue collar? He seems to be talking about physical labor jobs where employers are willing to train. I don't see that much on the IT side of employment, for example.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

This is a terrible analogy; If I were a Java programmer who was unemployed, struggling to find any job at all, I would take your shitty $10/hr programming job in a heartbeat. Of course I am not under/un-employed, so I have the luxury of telling you to take your shitty job offering and shove it. Your little scenario seems absurd to all of us because we all know that there are plenty of far better programming jobs avai…

Unless you were collecting unemployment, in which case the shitty $10/hour job would result in a net loss.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what part of the linked exchange did he 'blame the poor'? There are many causes of poverty and I don't think lack of hard work is a big one. However when it comes to young people deciding how they will make their way in the world I think a lot choose to go into debt for a four year degree that won't help them in the real world. That is not a wise decision and so we should encourage those people to make better deci…

For a few of us, it reads as him basically blaming them for not taking the jobs he references time and again. Maybe that is unfair, but it does echo in the rhetoric to me.

I think he'd be more likely to agree that people just don't know, as in there is an information problem.
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