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The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

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Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#101

Post by emp »

iends wrote: post #76
moolriaz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Weren't those laws only really enforced when coloured people broke them, though?" What? 'Coloured' people also refers to a very specific subset of South Africans It doesn't mean what you think it does here.

Can you elaborate? When I visited South Africa, a few white people used it to refer to the non-whites. I do not know if they were just trying to be descriptive or discriminatory. Perhaps it didn't mean what I thought it meant.

I would get scowled at using that term when I first moved out of SA. It is referring to a specific group of people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Coloureds

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#102

Post by kops »

puller wrote: post #61
wavefunction wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your take. The people calling Mandela a terrorist don't know what they're talking about.

To be fair, he did found the armed wing of the ANC, was offered a release from prison conditional on renouncing violence which he refused to do, and afterward his group went on to carry out a number of IRA-style bombings. The apartheid regime might have justified extreme measures that killed civilians, but his hands are not as clean as you would imagine from the hagiography. We don't glorify Gerry Adams in this way a…

> To be fair, he did found the armed wing of the ANC, was offered a release from prison conditional on renouncing violence which he refused to do, and afterward his group went on to carry out a number of IRA-style bombings.

So he didn't turn out to be a meek cow...that is your complaint?

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#103

Post by [deleted] »

iends wrote: post #94
dannypgh wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think apartheid is a good example of why the moral thing to do sometimes is to harm others and/or destroy property. It's not hard to argue at all. Preventing the suffering of the many by harming a relatively small number of people (or destroying practically any amount of property, really) is a clear win from a utilitarian perspective.

I understand your perspective and realize it's an easy argument to make. I see the same arguments about America's use of the atomic bomb in WW2. There is not much more to say on this topic with two opposing viewpoints :)

[deleted]

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#104

Post by diogenescynic »

dharmach wrote: post #90
moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

I also see many people nitpicking minor details to show that Mandela was not 100% peaceful and he talked about struggle. When you have nothing to complain to those aggressor and their violence, why complain that oppressed victim who has no power, is not perfectly peaceful, law-abiding and fair?

Welcome to the new relativism, where the facts don't matter and semantics rule the day.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#105

Post by moolriaz »

001sky wrote: post #100
iends wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandela was more than happy to use violence against the government as a tool in his cause for equality (although later he seemed to regret the need for it). Using violence, he broke reasonable and justified laws. Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others. Just because we can all agree that his cause was just, doesn't mean he should necessarily get a free pass from criticism or ju…

he broke reasonable and justified laws The logic here escapes me. The purpose of the laws he broke was to support the unreasonable and unjust ones from being challenged. Right? The difference between something like apartheid (or the 3rd reich) and something like a dysfunctional democracy (which will have some bad laws) is the centrality of evil in the core of the system of idendity of the state. Clearly, in SA the ap…

This is at best anecdotal evidence for a mass exodus of the 'best and brightest' fleeing SA. The only time I have been mugged, attacked, or stalked was during my time as a student in the UK (have had all three happen). Ironically I suffered a serious racist attack in the UK, where someone tried to stab me because I wasn't the right colour. The only time I have serious feared for my life. I have never had any such problems in SA. I have never been robbed, threatened, or put in a bad racist situation - this has only happened to me abroad.

For many of the millions oppressed during Apartheid, SA is far, far better now. Don't forget crime was rampant during Apartheid, and police protection was not afforded equally to those of difference races. My family, living in non-white areas, had a total of 9 cars stolen during Apartheid. This doesn't happen anymore. Crime statistics are far more accurate now, and show a decreasing trend since Apartheid, though of course it is still high. This crime remains mainly in township areas of SA - set up during Apartheid.

I'm not sure what you mean by success stories. There are numerous successful companies in SA, especially tech companies in the Cape Town. My family have risen from rags through businesses and professional work, and my father was able to rise to a judge where people are now fairly tried regardless of race. I'd say that is a success in the rule of law. Our government is not perfect (which is?), but it sure has come a long way. Just while growing up in SA, malls have risen, houses built for millions who lived in shacks, universities opened up to reflect the demographics of the population - the country has prospered even during the rescission, and property value and sky rocketed in some areas. I have numerous opportunities in SA, and run a startup there.

I carried out research both at Oxford, in the US, and in South Africa. The researchers I worked with in SA are as highly regarded as their peers in their field abroad (bioinformatics), as highly cited, and are happy in South Africa. I know of people going abroad to do PhD's, then returning to lecture here. I only know 1 other person who has moved to the UK permanently, and this is because they have no family in SA and no higher education.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#106

Post by rayiner »

yequalsx wrote: post #49
moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I too am shocked. That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. I'm friends with a woman who grew up in South Africa. She is white. The stories she tells about the attitudes and what happened there during the Apartheid regime are revolting. She thinks Mandela is a saint and is very grateful for his leadership. Mandela was n…

> That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame.

The real shame is that The Afrikaner nationlist party that instituted apartheid ran on the platform in 1948, the same year that the Dixiecrats in America ran on a segregationist platform. Apartheid started to crumble in 1990, less than 30 years after George Wallace, as Governor of Alabama, declared "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!", less than 25 years after he ran for President, and just over 20 years after MLK was assassinated.

Of course, by 1970 the situation in the U.S. was far better than it was in South Africa. But apartheid in South Africa was less far-removed, temporally, from segregation in America than most Americans appreciate. Ronald Reagan, who opposed Mandela as President, spent more of his life living in a legally segregated America than he did living in a legally integrated America.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#107

Post by ismail »

larrys wrote: post #25
jd_free wrote: post #18

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created whi…

You've raised some interesting points and I don't know enough to know if this is correct (other than what you are referring to and I don't even come close to knowing how to vet anything on this). But I do know that currently Mandela is seen as a saint (just watching the news last night alone would tell you that). So I wonder if anyone with mainstream credibility has written or will write some definite document that c…

I think the media you are watching are doing you a disservice and quite possibly the world media. They are portraying Nelson Mandela as some kind of grand-father to the country, and yes in the last 15 years he has grown into that role, but there was more to the man that.

He was not GREAT because he was a SAINT or a pacifist or forgiving. He was great, because he knew what needed to be done, and he did it at the right times.

When the peaceful resistance, the marching, the uprisings were not working, it was time for the armed resistance.

When the country was at the brink of civil war he reliased unity would be needed to ensure the country and people would be truly free.

He was great, because he could get people to see his view of the world, not by force, not by demanding but just by speaking to them.

He was not this cuddly teddy bear/saint that some here seem to think he was. When the time came, and he did what needed to be done, not for himself but for the people, for a cause and for freedom.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#108

Post by snrip »

ilitirit wrote: post #9
snrip wrote: post #2

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

> for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. TBH, while he did break the law, I think his course of action against the state was justified. That's obviously not an excuse that will fly in court, but saying "he deserved to go to jail" is a bit disingenuous given the context. Mandela pleaded guilty to the charges against him (sabotage of various state and military instruments). The state was looking for…

Yeah, I should not have let that remark fly without further elaboration: For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. In my book that warrents jail sentence.

I am not too sure how to feel about an institution of the apartheids regime being the judge to this. Right and wrong get mixed up in my head.

For the fact that he and others resisted this regime, they deserve the praise they are getting. Sure some laws have been broken, but who made and interpreted these laws? That is not why I was saying he deserved punishment. It is innocent victims that make the difference. I was definitely not clear on that.

Btw I just did some reading up on the ANC bombings and it turns out I might be all wrong and just made an ass out of myself.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#109

Post by rayiner »

iends wrote: post #58
yequalsx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I too am shocked. That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. I'm friends with a woman who grew up in South Africa. She is white. The stories she tells about the attitudes and what happened there during the Apartheid regime are revolting. She thinks Mandela is a saint and is very grateful for his leadership. Mandela was n…

Mandela was more than happy to use violence against the government as a tool in his cause for equality (although later he seemed to regret the need for it). Using violence, he broke reasonable and justified laws. Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others. Just because we can all agree that his cause was just, doesn't mean he should necessarily get a free pass from criticism or ju…

What legitimacy do laws have, when opposed by a majority of the population and imposed on them by a minority?

Calling the ANC "terrorist" turns the term on its head. "Terrorism" is when a minority group uses violence to achieve goals it cannot achieve politically. When the majority uses violence to safeguard its own well-being, that's not terrorism. That's exercising an ability possessed by people in the state of nature, one not superseded by any legitimate law or social contract. In the terminology of American criminal law, the violence is not only justified (where a crime is deemed to have been committed but the actions mitigated by a compelling justification), but excused (where no crime is deemed to have been committed at all).

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