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Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

theguardian.com

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Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#161

Post by tokenadult »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #144
beachstartup wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like to believe i know that people in general are racist against the chinese for all sorts of reasons, but this is the first time i've heard this one. does anyone actually doubt china's economic growth? i mean all you have to do is go there and see it. (granted, very, very few 'experts' on china have ever actually been there)

It isn't racism. This link provides a useful summary of the question : http://ineteconomics.org/china-economics-seminar-0/short-his... The global interest in China's actual GDP on a comparative scale is to help estimate things like their future consumption of natural resources, their threat to global stability, and to evaluate global recessions/growth more accurately. The problem with "seeing it" is differentiating w…

As comments to your first comment have already pointed out, pollution per unit of primary energy produced in power plants can vary wildly among different parts of the world. Yes, we know that China is putting up a lot of buildings. We know that China has huge amounts of air pollution. We don't know if China would be doing either of those things to the same degree if China had a freer market and more effective rule of law. That's why observers like me think that China could still stagnate at its current level of economic development, and lose the growth magic that it (undeniably) has enjoyed during most of our adult lives.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#162

Post by dreamfactory »

saalweachter wrote: post #109
Sharlin wrote: post #16

I wonder how this compares to the worst smogs experienced in London and elsewhere before the West got its act together with regard to particulate pollution. Apparently the Great Smog of 1952 killed on the order of 10000 people in just a few days. I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952

It really irks me whenever there's a talk about nuclear energy. Nuclear power may have its own set of challenges, but coming from the baseline of coal it's hard to do worse.

As far as I know, no coal plants have ever resulted in a Chernobyl-scale effect.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#163

Post by teyc »

For the engineers this is an interesting read: http://cornerstonemag.net/pollution-control-of-coal-fired-po...

According to this article, coal fired stations are no longer the primary source of PM2.5. Road vehicles emit an order of magnitude more particulate matter.

I recall about 20 years ago, Santiago had to implement a system where odd-numbered vehicles were allowed to drive on one day, and even-numbered the next, to cut down on the haze problem.

Perhaps electric vehicles are the way to go.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#164

Post by c0riander »

jpatokal wrote: post #154
ashray wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the exact same problem with my parents in New Delhi. Father was suffering from lung disease. Wanted to sit outside on the balcony - fresh air, apparently. I tried to explain to him that the air is laden with dangerous levels of particulate pollutants. He didn't care. He died earlier this year. PM10/2.5 levels continue to be disastrous (1900+/700+ on some days especially around Diwali). Mother still likes to open…

But does closing windows really help? I mean sure, short term it slows down the exchange of air between the inside and outside, so it'll be helpful if there's a sudden spike that goes away . But if the pollution is a chronic problem, and it certainly is in Shanghai and New Delhi, then eventually the equilibrium will equalize and the air inside will be just as bad.

It would help if your air conditioning/HVAC system is also doing air filtration (as they do in the US, not familiar with Shanghai/New Dehli).

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#165

Post by dreamfactory »

sliverstorm wrote: post #142
Houshalter wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could just give people food without having to make stuff for us in return. The world does not have a food shortage.

That fosters dependence issues.

What does that even mean? Who is dependent on what in that scenario?

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#166

Post by davepage »

da02 wrote: post #41
davepage wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1000! Crazy laowai. As a data point, my current F visa is 2 years, multi-entry, 90 days and cost the nominal fee plus about $100 for the visa company to drop it off at the consulate. Apparently, the F visa has been re-purposed and there is a new M business visa. Any practical experience with that? [of course, China habitually hassles journalists (Bloomberg) over visas]

What's the name (or link) of the visa company?

Business visa Requirements: 1. One completely filled out “Visa Application Form, which you can down load from my attached PDF file. It needs to type with computer then print out. Don’t leave any blank, write “N/A” in any item which not suit for you. 2. One recently taken 2X2 in. photo showing entire face and without a hat on. Please affix the photo to the application form. Photo should be light background, and taken within 6 months. 3. Original passport with at least 2 blank visa pages and valid for at least 6 months beyond the date of application. 4. Invitation letter from the company or university in China 5. Your company or college in US's letter for proof. 6. Fee: Embassy: $140/per person for single, double & multiple entry in one year Service fee: $35.00 Postage: $22.00 for local people pick up by themselves, +$7.40 for others Total: $197.00 for local/ $204.40 for others.

Make your check paid to: Chinese Service Center .

Lucy Chinese Service Center of Greater Albany, LLC. 2394 Parkville Place Schenectady, NY 12309 Tel:(518)346-0555 Email:CSCAlbany@yahoo.com

EDIT: formatting

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#167

Post by ChuckMcM »

revelation wrote: post #150
ChuckMcM wrote: post #81

I see this as a difficult to fake signal that China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like to believe. It is similar to the challenges faced by industrial cities in the West as they exploited the massive production capacities created during WW II. Generally the reasoning goes, high pollution from lots of power plants / factories is a function of production of those power plants / factor…

But is it sustainable? Heavy thick smog (indicating the prominent use of coal to generate power) are certainly a negative signal when we have much better power sources.

Of course it is, (sustainable that is), it is just more expensive. I don't believe there is anything currently cheaper than a pouring fresh out of the mine coal, down a chute into a burner, which is making steam to drive a turbine. And there are a number of plants in China that seem to be just that.

You can pre-process the coal (remove impurities, create more uniform pellets, etc) to reduce random by products, and you can post process the exhaust plume through particulate and catalyzing filters to remove pollution by products. Much like a modern automobile a modern coal plant does all of that and more.

The down side is that it is more expensive to build, and to operate, and to fuel. Which is why generally government regulations are used to enforce it.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#168

Post by ceejayoz »

dreamfactory wrote: post #162
saalweachter wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really irks me whenever there's a talk about nuclear energy. Nuclear power may have its own set of challenges, but coming from the baseline of coal it's hard to do worse.

As far as I know, no coal plants have ever resulted in a Chernobyl-scale effect.

That's the thing, though. They have many Chernobyls worth of effect over the long term, and will continue to do so. Meanwhile, Chernobyl helped nuclear facilities become far safer.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#169

Post by ChuckMcM »

dreamfactory wrote: post #162
saalweachter wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really irks me whenever there's a talk about nuclear energy. Nuclear power may have its own set of challenges, but coming from the baseline of coal it's hard to do worse.

As far as I know, no coal plants have ever resulted in a Chernobyl-scale effect.

Can you say what effect you want comparison with? For example, acid rain has created huge problems in watersheds far away from the original power plants.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#170

Post by YokoZar »

dreamfactory wrote: post #162
saalweachter wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really irks me whenever there's a talk about nuclear energy. Nuclear power may have its own set of challenges, but coming from the baseline of coal it's hard to do worse.

As far as I know, no coal plants have ever resulted in a Chernobyl-scale effect.

Chernobyl is estimated to have a combined death toll of somewhat less than a thousand people over their lifetimes.

Coal power plants kill ten times as many people every year when functioning as designed.

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