The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA • Hacker News Board

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#51

Post by avenger123 » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:05 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #43

the_af wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With this mindset, is it ever possible to judge anything? "At the time, it made sense to help racists (who happened to be our allies) imprison and possibly hang a black agitator. We now know it was wrong, but back then who knew?" Um, ok. So when is it right to denounce those who helped racist regimes?

I agree with your general point, but at the time U.S. was locked in an existential struggle with the Soviet Union and essentially was taking all sorts of actions around the world against many parties sympathetic to communist causes. Not saying it's an excuse, but it does provide some context

Sorry, this line is getting very very old.

It's extremely tiresome to watch actions being justified because the "big bad" communists were out there. And what is this about an existential struggle?

The only real struggle between the two nations was who would dominate the rest of the world. I don't consider this existential. China is doing just fine without wanting to take over the rest of the world.

It's great revisionist history going on right now with Nelson Mandela's death. If you don't know the real history, you would think the States was right there beside Mandela fighting for freedom.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#52

Post by mikebludd » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:06 PM UTC

jd_free wrote: post #18

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created whi…

Black South African here It's a known fact that the ANC's guerilla campaign was largely a failure(most of the combatants were stuck in training camps across africa ).MK was founded after the Sharpeville massacre 21 March 1960 at which the apartheid gov killed 69 people who did not want carry ID's required for all black males.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#53

Post by scarmig » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:12 PM UTC

garg wrote: post #23

jd_free wrote: post #18

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created whi…

From what I am reading all this happened while he was in prison. ANC had violent members while Mandela was in prison but how does that implicate Mandela? Desmund Tutu saved a man from Necklacing so why then would he be such an ardent supporter of Mandela?

In fairness, he started the military wing of the ANC, and his wife was involved in lots of very nasty stuff.

Those were bleak times, though; I'm sure Mandela himself thought as much. But for some reason you don't see the people so outraged about the relatively limited violence the ANC engaged in even slightly concerned about the constant terrorism and mass violence that the apartheid state directed against it's nonwhite residents. (I would say citizens, but they didn't even have legal formal citizenship.) And more than anything it's Mandela's performance after abolition that has cemented his reputation: he could easily have been another Mugabe, but he pursued restorative justice for both sides, not vengeance.

To paraphrase MLK...

I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that a political movement in a deeply repressed and violent society itself occasionally resorts to violence, but it is even more unfortunate that the country's white power structure left the coloured community with no alternative.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#54

Post by owenmarshall » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:13 PM UTC

CraigJPerry wrote: post #44

I only found out today how Nelson Mandella place in Glasgow city centre got its name. To piss off SA, the street their embassy was on was renamed while he was still being held. There's more the story: http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781

This is the same reason that there is a Bobby Sands Street in downtown Tehran.

The UK embassy responded by moving their main entrance to a side door on a different street so they wouldn't be forced to put Bobby Sands on their letterhead, official documents, etc.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#55

Post by noarchy » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:13 PM UTC

tcdent wrote: post #47

gwern wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the same bull*t that is thrown at Castro, Che Guevara, and many others. Bullshit? Should we infer that you think Castro's Cuba was a smashing success and has totally justified all the bad things he and his followers did?

Care to elaborate on "all of the bad things"? If there's anything to take away from this discussion on Mandela, it's that there are a lot of misunderstandings about what actually happened, especially if you are primarily informed by American media.

"all of the bad things" seem to continue:

Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent. The government of Raúl Castro continues to enforce political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. Although the Cuban government released dozens of political prisoners on the condition that they leave the country, the government continues to sentence dissidents in closed, summary trials. The government has also relied increasingly upon arbitrary arrests and short-term detentions to restrict the basic rights of its critics, including the right to assemble and move freely.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

Another source for info, if you don't like HRW: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#56

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:16 PM UTC

mjb wrote: post #37

jd_free wrote: post #18

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created whi…

> He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. Mandela was extremely conflicted by the ANC's (and, more specifically, MK's) use of violence against the apartheid government. He saw it as a regrettable tool to be used to achieve better ends. It's clear from his later writings (his Time essay about Gandhi, for example) that he, at least, regretted needing t…

[deleted]

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#57

Post by mikebludd » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:19 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #11

yequalsx wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to ja…

Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?

no.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#58

Post by iends » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:21 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #49

moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I too am shocked. That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. I'm friends with a woman who grew up in South Africa. She is white. The stories she tells about the attitudes and what happened there during the Apartheid regime are revolting. She thinks Mandela is a saint and is very grateful for his leadership. Mandela was n…

Mandela was more than happy to use violence against the government as a tool in his cause for equality (although later he seemed to regret the need for it). Using violence, he broke reasonable and justified laws. Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others.

Just because we can all agree that his cause was just, doesn't mean he should necessarily get a free pass from criticism or judgement.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#59

Post by iends » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:23 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #48

moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

Thanks for your take. The people calling Mandela a terrorist don't know what they're talking about.

Well, I think many are just pointing out he was classified as a terrorist by the United States until 2008.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#60

Post by iends » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 7:29 PM UTC

mjb wrote: post #39

jbooth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty amazing that we've got all these brand new accounts showing up, all to make sure that we're aware of what a terrible person Nelson Mandela was. I had no idea this movement existed, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Nothing to do with race, I'm sure, they're just pacifists who oppose violence in all forms. If they were being oppressed by black people, they'd never have resorted to violence.

> I had no idea this movement existed, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a South African. I am constantly disappointed by the amount of time and emotional energy some South Africans (and expats) put into historical revisionism and apartheid denial. There are many reasons for it, but it's worth reminding yourself that in 1992 more than 30% of South African voters voted to continue apartheid ( http://en.wikiped…

There seems to be revisionism on both sides. Before yesterday did not know that Mandela started the armed branch of the ANC which actively bombed government buildings and while Mandela was in prison (and maybe not involved) bombed public places where innocent people were killed.

This isn't judgement, this is me as an American being shocked that the media and historical portrayal I've encountered never mentioned these facts (although, it's certainly not secret and not something I've investigated).