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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#211

Post by onetwofiveten »

diminoten wrote: post #195
bmelton wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that this answer might seem overly terse, but there are a group of unnamed prisoners in Guantanamo Bay sitting there, not getting the benefit of due process that they are obligated. Under the NDAA, the president has the authority to enshrine anyone he wishes, subject to zero oversight, to a similar fate. Under the PATRIOT Act, we've bombed American Citizens suspected of possibly committing a crime in the future…

So no one, then?

I guess you're getting down voted because it's an emotional issue. But you're right, so far, the number of people targeted by the NSA/CIA with extreme methods (i.e. drone strikes, imprisonment without trial, rendition, warrantless spying, blackmail) seems relatively small, and it seems to be mostly restricted to non-Americans or people that the American public don't really care about.

That doesn't mean it's okay. Think about what's going on here. The USA has basically created for itself a secret police with powers that, in practise, are very close to those of an agency like the KGB or the Stasi. Sure, as you point out, these new powers are not being used to cart people away wholesale. But you should still be very nervous.

Even now, we might be past the point of no return. That's not just hyperbole on my part. The way I see it, it's very easy to get into in a kind of ratchet situation where powers and abuses can only increase over time. We may already be there. It's politically very difficult to reduce powers for any agency, let one that pushes both military and law enforcement buttons. Even if calls for reform get taken seriously, they may be dealt with by sacrificing a scapegoat and making superficial changes. Even if there was a strong serious concerted political effort to reform the NSA and CIA do you really trust them not to interfere with it? Do you strongly believe, without any doubt, that the NSA and CIA are above blackmailing their own politicians?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#212

Post by onetwofiveten »

asabjorn wrote: post #168
Amadou wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good. Evil like in the movies doesn't exist. In the real-world evil is simply a lack of perspective (some would call it empathy instead). No one ever wakes up and decides they want to be a villain. They always have some sort of logic that rationalizes their actions as being reasonable if not outright good. The more they act on that lack o…

I agree that normal people are generally not evil, but sociopaths can very much be indistinguishable from some particularly evil movie-characters. I worked with a sociopath in the past and have studied it in literature, and a sociopath by definition sees meeting their own needs as a priority. Regardless of the effect on those around them. A sociopath is willing to inflict suffering on others for even minor gains of t…

You know, people talk about sociopaths a lot, and I get why, but I have a problem with the definition. The idea is that a sociopath is someone who lacks empathy (or, so I've read, is able to switch off their empathy) and prioritises their own needs. The behaviour is characterised as selfish, as in putting themselves first. This doesn't really make sense to me, because there's an implicit assumption about what actually benefits the sociopath.

Taking a step back, as far as I can see, a sociopath is someone who (either by choice or by nature) prioritises certain social drives over other social drives. The drives to be empathic and obey social expectations, norms and rules get ignored. However, the drives for status, money and power are prioritised above all others. These drives are still social in nature. They don't actually convey a fundamental biological advantage.

I personally choose to aim to be a warm and caring human being, and, as a consequence of that, I have a really great relationship with my girlfriend. When we have kids, our kids will grow up in a loving supportive environment and so will have a good chance of growing up strong and well balanced. Being a sociopath would probably get me more material possessions, but I would have had to settle for an emotionally weaker partner (who I could dominate) and I would end up with messed up kids with a lower chance of success and survival.

From my own personal experience, people who fit the sociopathic archetype aren't really like evil villains. They're more like computer game addicts, fixated on goals that don't bring them happiness, and that get in the way of forming genuine connections with other human beings. I can see why people who are the victims of their behaviour characterise it as selfish, because they see the world as a competition for money, status and power and they think they are losing out. However, that competition is just a game, and the grand prize is not happiness.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#213

Post by dbdr »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #170
Amadou wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good. Evil like in the movies doesn't exist. In the real-world evil is simply a lack of perspective (some would call it empathy instead). No one ever wakes up and decides they want to be a villain. They always have some sort of logic that rationalizes their actions as being reasonable if not outright good. The more they act on that lack o…

Reminds me of the movie The Cube [1]. Some select quotes (minor spoiler alert): "There is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan." "It's all the same machine, right? The Pentagon, multinational corporations, the police. If you do one little job, you build a widget in Saskatoon, and the next thing you know, it's two miles under the desert, the essentia…

These quotes are from the 1997 film Cube [1], not the 1969 The Cube [2] of your rotten tomatoes link.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_(film)

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cube_(film)

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#214

Post by nodata »

fuzzix wrote: post #204
nodata wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a good comparison. http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

It's a common idiom with an established meaning. The behaviour of actual frogs is immaterial.

It's wrong: frogs don't do what was described.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#215

Post by varjag »

crystaln wrote: post #107

NSA responses generally imply that any sort of surveillance is ok, as long as it's of non-Americans. While it may largely be legally true, I think the presumption that that is a valid defense needs to be challenged more often. Phrases like "intended strictly to develop intelligence about foreign targets" seems to be regularly used by reporters in such a way as to imply that, if true, the surveillance would be a-ok. T…

Worse yet, this sort of programs provides both justification and technology (which inevitably trickles down from NSA-sponsored R&D) for other governments to spy on their citizens.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#216

Post by fuzzix »

nodata wrote: post #214
fuzzix wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common idiom with an established meaning. The behaviour of actual frogs is immaterial.

It's wrong: frogs don't do what was described.

Ostriches don't bury their heads in the sand when they sense danger.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#217

Post by easy_rider »

dmunoz wrote: post #83
easy_rider wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Enemy of the state is the one where one of the Gov. hackers wears computer/shooting glasses and looks like Dexter Holland from The Offspring. http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Enemy-of-the-S...

Do those glasses have no benefit? They're marketed to gamers as reducing eye strain [0]. I step away from the monitor often enough that I don't get overly bothered by it, even if I'm programming for an extended period of time. I do also run f.lux as well, though. [0] http://www.gunnars.com/

I can say I own two of those gunnars, but you're better off looking for a cheaper alternative.

What they provide is an f.lux experience, with a +1 magnification. their optics are quite clear, but no where near the marketing hype they claim.

When I compared a $10 pair of sunglasses to a pair of +$100 Oakley's I was like wowzered by the optics. It actually provided me with better contrast across the range, in all but rainy weather.

Always wanted to try one out after i saw that movie. So one day I got a tax benefit and could get them for free. They shipped out the wrong model first time, so I got two.

They seemed really overpriced to me, but do help. Keep them on long enough and you'll see blue. I had clear benefits when for a year long I was doing online poker zombie shifts. But on one without a frame, the legs came of fairly easily. They were plastic and glued into the glasses. I still have to re-glue them, but never bothered. I might fix them and give them another go.

But for $100+ I'm getting a solid yet lightweight frame from Oakley, and a crappy plastic frame holding not-so-impressive optics together.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#218

Post by jdimov »

gazrogers wrote: post #210
acqq wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The view presented before the last line is counterproductive on so many levels. There's a nice name for it: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/defeatism Acceptance of defeat without struggle. The problem with the writing style where only the last line brings the change in mood is that a lot of people don't read everything. The direct call to action is always a better approach. Don't make the text full with wrong arguments…

That's a bit like complaining that a joke isn't funny because you didn't bother to read/listen all the way to the punchline.

Yes, which means the joke isn't funny.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#219

Post by ohwp »

sebkomianos wrote: post #162

I shouldn’t be writing this. Every time I read something NSA/FBI/CIA/KGB/Interpol/MI5/Stasi related I get this instinctive feeling of angriness and sadness at the same time. We were given the “internet”, pretty much for free, and we believed it would be a fair deal? That there would be nothing in for them? When was the last time you were give something for free, can you even remember? They are breaking encryption? Re…

"Because the truth is, I can’t do anything."

I think this is a lie (but I share your feelings). All the oppression is driven by the greed. Me myself and I is the norm. Not only in politics but a lot of people are turning to the believe that the world is all about self.

The selfish world doesn't care about others. But I can tell you from my own experience that if you care about others (everyone included without exception) people will change little by little.

Some things I have to remind myself all the time to achieve this:

  * Separate what people do from who they are
  * First blame yourself then others
  * Don't put yourself above others
People at the top are standing on the foundation of people at the bottom. I think both the people at the top and the bottom don't realize this all the time. This means that the top position is as strong as its foundation. And that the foundation can change what's happening at the top.

A small spark can cause an explosion.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#220

Post by neuralk »

dredmorbius wrote: post #87
angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Thank you. I was going to make the same point, you've done it well. Moreover: this is why the Snowden, PRISM, NSA/FBI, surveillance, privacy, and other stories matter on HN. Many of those working for startups are contributing directly (and occasionally indirectly) to the datastreams…

I'm not sure how much you can really blame Facebook or Google here. My understanding is that a corporation is legally compelled to comply with a National Security Letter if it receives one, which is far from voluntary collusion.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see where your dissatisfaction is coming from.

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