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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#101

Post by SheepSlapper »

marvin wrote: post #65
angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

IEEE Code of Ethics: http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html

ACM Code of Ethics: http://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics

So, the standards exist but people choose to ignore them. Which, I guess since you're not forced to be a member of either professional society as a "computer person", isn't all that unreasonable. But personal ethics should win out in these situations without someone else having to tell you that it's wrong.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#102

Post by Amadou »

runn1ng wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous. PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc. I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

Evil like in the movies doesn't exist. In the real-world evil is simply a lack of perspective (some would call it empathy instead).

No one ever wakes up and decides they want to be a villain. They always have some sort of logic that rationalizes their actions as being reasonable if not outright good. The more they act on that lack of perspective the greater the evil they perpetrate.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#103

Post by swalkergibson »

eliasmacpherson wrote: post #88
swalkergibson wrote: post #29

I am now numb to these revelations, as I suspect are most of the technology community. The only thing that will make the rest of the general populace wake up is if someone on TV says they are vehemently opposed to it. Someone who has trotted out the, "I have nothing to hide, so I am not worried." I believe the only way this will happen is if Edward Snowden specifically targeted one of those people and created a file…

I think it's up to you to get people within your own sphere of influence to care, rather than shift that duty to someone else.

I agree, and my sphere of influence is most certainly incensed already, but there is so much inertia in the population that it needs a jump start.

For instance, this should be front-page news everywhere. Full stop. Instead, the front page of www.cnn.com is currently populated by yet another Paul Walker death story, www.msnbc.com does not have any reference to it on its home page, and www.foxnews.com is devoid of this bombshell as well.

It really looks like the American populace at large is perfectly okay with being spied on and tracked everywhere. For all of the talk there is about wanting a smaller government, there sure ain't a hell of a lot of action. I cannot think of a government that is bigger than one that tracks your every move, forever.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#104

Post by SheepSlapper »

lhc- wrote: post #81
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

While in school for Computer Engineering (2002-2007 or so), I actually had two ethics classes, one specifically for Engineering and one for Information ethics. I dont know how standard that is, but all the engineering disciplines had to take the Engineering one and computer scienc-y students had to take Info ethics.

Same here (2006-2011), and it was actually pretty fun to talk about the ethical issues that can arise in our profession(s).

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#105

Post by CWuestefeld »

cryoshon wrote: post #48

Isn't this one of the big reveals that we've been waiting for-- that they are attempting to track our physical movement? With this geographical information history, their ability to smash dissent without physical force is unparalleled, given that nearly everyone has visited a sketchy location at one time or another. Doesn't this revelation prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the USA is even worse than the imagined…

But they're quite clear that they were not ATTEMPTING to track us. It's just a side effect of something else, a benefit they may be profoundly happy about, but can claim that is was not the goal of the program.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#106

Post by cbrauchli »

lhc- wrote: post #81
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

While in school for Computer Engineering (2002-2007 or so), I actually had two ethics classes, one specifically for Engineering and one for Information ethics. I dont know how standard that is, but all the engineering disciplines had to take the Engineering one and computer scienc-y students had to take Info ethics.

Interesting. I'd never heard of this, but it makes sense. Whereabouts did you go to school?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#107

Post by crystaln »

NSA responses generally imply that any sort of surveillance is ok, as long as it's of non-Americans.

While it may largely be legally true, I think the presumption that that is a valid defense needs to be challenged more often.

Phrases like "intended strictly to develop intelligence about foreign targets" seems to be regularly used by reporters in such a way as to imply that, if true, the surveillance would be a-ok.

The difference between the rights of Americans vs non-Americans, with regard to US intelligence services, is an interesting one. Certainly non-Americans are deserving of at least some protections. I would hope that we could provide most of the world with the same level of respect as we do each other.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#108

Post by nitrogen »

...it collects locations in bulk because its most powerful analytic tools — known collectively as CO-TRAVELER — allow it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.

Better change your bus route if you notice the same terrorist rides the same bus as you every day.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#109

Post by md224 »

runn1ng wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous. PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc. I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

Indeed. There's also a huge spectrum of ethical issues in computing, from black hat hacking to mundane issues that many may not even recognize as having an ethical dimension. For example, I turned down an offer from a major company (won't name here) to work on analytics for their advertising platform. It was a difficult decision and involved multiple factors, but part of it had to do with my discomfort regarding the ethical issues of search-engine advertising. I found it hard to garner support for my viewpoint when discussing my decision with others, and it was striking to see how many people consider search advertising to be relatively benign and not worth turning down a job over. I learned an important lesson about how much moral views/priorities can differ, even amongst people whose worldviews largely overlap.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#110

Post by swalkergibson »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #85
PavlovsCat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and the soldiers don't make the orders, the generals don't make the politics, the politicians just try to keep the military industrial complex fat and snugly and the citizens happy, the citizens just crave security because that's what the media says is what citizens crave while the military industrial complex just seeks profit because it's required to by stockholders and everyone else involved, who are just try…

So why is that in polite company, even those that are opposed to our various wars are obliged to toe the line, "we support our troops"? Even in 21st century America, we continue to fool ourselves, thinking that somehow soldiers can be noble, heroes even, all the while being engaged something that is immoral.

I have wondered the same thing privately numerous times. I believe it is a reflexive reaction because they can easily be killed doing their jobs, which they signed up for. It is some kind of bizarre "patriotic" requirement, likely borne of the significant derision heaped upon returning Vietnam veterans. Perhaps it is a generation of people who never want to see that happen again that have created this sacred cow?
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