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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#141

Post by penrod »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #85
PavlovsCat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and the soldiers don't make the orders, the generals don't make the politics, the politicians just try to keep the military industrial complex fat and snugly and the citizens happy, the citizens just crave security because that's what the media says is what citizens crave while the military industrial complex just seeks profit because it's required to by stockholders and everyone else involved, who are just try…

So why is that in polite company, even those that are opposed to our various wars are obliged to toe the line, "we support our troops"? Even in 21st century America, we continue to fool ourselves, thinking that somehow soldiers can be noble, heroes even, all the while being engaged something that is immoral.

What immoral acts do you consider US troops to currently be engaged in?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#142

Post by pavpanchekha »

sjtgraham wrote: post #79

> The NSA does not target Americans’ location data by design, but the agency acquires a substantial amount of information on the whereabouts of domestic cellphones “incidentally,” a legal term that connotes a foreseeable but not deliberate result. The implication that Americans being "incidentally" caught in the dragnet is the only aspect that makes this egregious is absolutely fucking disgusting. This is a habit end…

I understand your contempt but this distinction is important in this specific discussion, because the NSA charter specifically restricts its actions against Americans. Thus, if the NSA is spying on Americans often enough for it not to be a "mistake", then the NSA is flagrantly violating the scope it has been given. If this is not occurring, the NSA is operating within its (ridiculously loose) legal bounds.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#143

Post by Crito »

agwa wrote: post #91
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

Yet there is no shortage of doctors willing to assist in torture of prisoners at Guantanamo, assist in executions of prisoners, or conduct non-consensual and medically unnecessary procedures (inserting catheters, rectal examinations, etc.) upon demand of the police. The problem isn't lack of ethics courses but a fundamental flaw in human nature, which is that people easily forget all their personal ethics when someon…

I believe various states in the US have found it difficult to find staff and drugs for lethal injection.

Perhaps the difference is if the doctors/nurses/vendors think that they can get away with it, not attracting the public's attention.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#144

Post by olefoo »

grecy wrote: post #97
olefoo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes; but it's equivalent to taking the Red Pill. Beforehand, you live in one of the most powerful and richest countries that ever was, a beacon of hope and freedom to the rest of the world. Afterwards you live in a country in which the government seems increasingly disconnected from human needs, sends robot assassins to bomb civilians half a world away and watches everyone with a myopically panoptic and punitive gaze…

> you live in one of the most powerful and richest countries that ever was, a beacon of hope and freedom to the rest of the world. Genuine question, do you actually believe this, or are you referring to it as fiction in the same way the Matrix is fictional?

Ah, err, ehm; I would have thought that I no longer do, if ever I did would be quite clear from the context.

I do think that our government took a serious wrong turn after 9/11, and that our collective self-image ("beacon of democracy" and all that jazz) is increasingly at odds with our behavior. More and more the US government seems to be driven by non-human motives. Non-human in that even the people at the very top seem cognitively overwhelmed and more as if they were being acted upon by unseen forces whose existence can be inferred by the traces they leave behind; but whose intent and motivation are obscure.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#145

Post by Crito »

lhc- wrote: post #81
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

While in school for Computer Engineering (2002-2007 or so), I actually had two ethics classes, one specifically for Engineering and one for Information ethics. I dont know how standard that is, but all the engineering disciplines had to take the Engineering one and computer scienc-y students had to take Info ethics.

The extent of computer ethics to me was "here is therac-25, you have an ethical responsibility to do your job well. here are various laws, don't break them." There was never talk of "consider the ramifications of your project, assuming it works".

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#146

Post by err4nt »

swalsh wrote: post #119
pit wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I humbly disagree. I was waiting for the site to "finish loading", and when I realized that it had, I was delighted.

My point is that, journalism is free because they are subsidized by advertisements. If you as an individual want to go directly to the print page... of course that's fine. It's great that you have that option. However, when posting a link on a site that will likely generate hundreds of hits (3% of which might click the ad), its only fair to THE COMPANY to post to their main site.

I dint get how this is rude, it would be trivial for THE COMPANY to add a few lines to their server configuration to redirect all incoming traffic from anywhere (or even just HN or Reddit) to redirect seamlessly to the non-print page that has both the ads and a print button....but this site hasn't done that (yet).

I don't think it's really that big of a deal. If it was a subscription service we were all bypassing without paying that's one thing, but this is just another page on their public website like anything else.

If you don't want people to see it, don't publish it online.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#147

Post by dclowd9901 »

adventured wrote: post #126
swalkergibson wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not support this level of spying, period. However, the ignition of any real movement would certainly be helped by the personal embarrassment of anybody with a large enough mouthpiece. s/Glenn Beck/Rachel Maddow if you want, the point still stands. Somebody has to get really, really worked up over this. EDIT: As it so happens, Glenn Beck is actually not in favor of this type of surveillance. I would have never gu…

Isn't Glenn Beck a strong Constitutionalist? I was always under the impression that was his entire platform.

He's an American Exceptionalist, given his historical support of torture and "if you're not with us you're against us" attitude.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#148

Post by etiam »

runn1ng wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous. PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc. I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

Thanks for pointing out "ambiguous". I believe it is very important to look at the situation and social pressures in addition to personal character. I also believe you are to significant extent wrong about the people at NSA believing they're doing good, however. Bill Binney, Jesselyn Radack and Thomas Drake all have personal experience with the matter, and here's what they had to say about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBp-1Br_OEs&t=1h37m59s

I would add that I think much of the material Ed Snowden released, to the extent that it shows personal expressions, to me points more to these people viewing the Intelligence organization as the new "we", and /everybody/ outside, US citizen or not, as a bit less than fully human. That cheeky smiley on the sketches detailing how they broke Google's SSL? "TOR Stinks" and similar flippant expressions in the documents about attacking the integrity of TOR? And so on. To me that isn't the look of someone who thinks they're making difficult, serious choices to protect the greater good. It's the look of someone who thinks they're better than everyone else out there and they can do whatever they want, including having "a little fun" toying with those other inferior creatures, because they think no one can touch them. That, I think, is the general mindset we're dealing with. Allow for a fair deal of individual variation of course.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#149

Post by ChristianBundy »

drcube wrote: post #75
stdbrouw wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying it's rude (not despicable or forbidden) to link to this page when putting it in front of a big crowd (not e.g. when viewing it on your own). Your comment is therefore entirely beside the point.

It's rude to link to an ugly site when you could link to a better, more readable one. It's rude to lie and manipulate people for money, when you could easily avoid doing so. Advertising should not be encouraged, ever. When you have the opportunity to show someone an ad-free, single page, uncluttered version of a piece of literature, do it. Please. Always.

>Advertising should not be encouraged, ever.

I've never come across this view – can you tell me why you hold that opinion?

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