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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#91

Post by agwa »

marvin wrote: post #65
angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

Yet there is no shortage of doctors willing to assist in torture of prisoners at Guantanamo, assist in executions of prisoners, or conduct non-consensual and medically unnecessary procedures (inserting catheters, rectal examinations, etc.) upon demand of the police. The problem isn't lack of ethics courses but a fundamental flaw in human nature, which is that people easily forget all their personal ethics when someone in authority (whether their boss or the police) tells them to do something.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#92

Post by CWuestefeld »

wiredfool wrote: post #44
ParkerK wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And that Google isn't limited by the Constitution I'm pretty sure it is...

Google is (modulo the corporation/person thingy) granted rights under the Constitution. The Constitution only limits Google to the extent that it's the basis for the system of laws that do the limiting.

Further semantic hairsplitting, perhaps:

Not Google nor any other person is granted rights under the Constitution. Given the Natural Rights philosophy subscribed to by many of the founders, as described by John Locke and others, the rights of the people pre-exist, simply by virtue of their being people.

The Constitution comes later. It describes a set of enumerated powers that the people have decided to cede to the government that they're creating. The way you describe it is the other way around from this.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#93

Post by sanskritabelt »

sukuriant wrote: post #28
lukev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can! Join the 60% of the world's population that _don't use the internet at all_. Or the 20% of the population of the _US_ that don't use the internet. You can even still use a cell phone, if you want - just buy a prepaid mobile with cash. And aside from awkwardness with your friends, you might even find such a life quite livable. You'll experience no material hardship.

Citation needed on the 20% of the population of the US that doesn't use the internet. Is there even 20% of the US population outside of 100 miles from the shore? Also, you can't use a cellphone without them knowing who you are with high certainty. It only takes 3 points of location data to identify a person the vast majority of the time[1]. Using a cell phone that you paid for with cash is insufficient. [1] http://ww…

Rough estimate from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territo... suggests that about 2/3 of americans live in a state bordering the ocean, so about 100 million americans further away from the shore.

What that has to do with anything, god only knows, unless you meant something like '100 miles away from the border', and even then I'm at a loss.

Go visit a flyover state sometime. Most of the country's very different than SV/the northeast corridor/other modern urbanized area, and I wouldn't live there if you paid me.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#94

Post by dredmorbius »

diminoten wrote: post #38
nostromo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the only difference. Other differences that come to mind: Google has yet to kill people with drones or send people to torture prisons in Egypt.

The NSA doesn't run operations, so they didn't do either of these things either. It's a big government.

CIA does directly run ops and targeting.

"The CIA's Silent War in Pakistan"

http://content.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1900248,00.html

"CIA drone attacks in Pakistan are responsible for unlawful killings, some of which could amount to war crimes, Amnesty International says."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24618701

"CIA Drone Strike Kills Pakistan Taliban Head Before Talks"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-03/cia-drone-strike-ki...

The division between "intelligence" and "operations" has been breached.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#95

Post by ChrisBland »

swalkergibson wrote: post #37
l0stb0y wrote: post #34

Anytime something bad happens I'm going to ask why the NSA didn't stop it. Paul Walkers death... why didn't the NSA stop it? PS4 DOA orders...why didn't the NSA stop it? Psychboo finding Prezi's source code... why didn't the NSA stop it?

You say this in jest, but they may have opened a can of worms here. Some defendant in a criminal case in Florida subpoenaed his NSA file in his defense. It would sure be interesting to see if this location data can be used as exculpatory evidence to acquit somebody, or if it would even be available. It would be very hard to stomach if that type of information is only available to convict, not exonerate.

The defendant was Terrance Brown, the gvt responded and said they did not have location data for him. Filed two different responses, one public with a ton of [REDACTED] and a private one.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#96

Post by stackcollision »

runn1ng wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous. PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc. I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate — and quickly." -Heinlein

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#97

Post by grecy »

olefoo wrote: post #22
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

So the deal modern man was presented with was this: we'll give you instant global communication for pennies, but in return governments and corporations will closely monitor everyone on the planet: where they are, who they call, how long the call is, their texts, messages, and other communications -- basically their thoughts. We'll record this forever to use as we choose. Trust us. As a global population, we seem to h…

Yes; but it's equivalent to taking the Red Pill. Beforehand, you live in one of the most powerful and richest countries that ever was, a beacon of hope and freedom to the rest of the world. Afterwards you live in a country in which the government seems increasingly disconnected from human needs, sends robot assassins to bomb civilians half a world away and watches everyone with a myopically panoptic and punitive gaze…

> you live in one of the most powerful and richest countries that ever was, a beacon of hope and freedom to the rest of the world.

Genuine question, do you actually believe this, or are you referring to it as fiction in the same way the Matrix is fictional?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#98

Post by marvin »

runn1ng wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous. PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc. I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

I get a very icky feeling when I read academic papers that explore how to mine network traffic for information on how to discover terrorists. And sure enough, when reading the funding information, the money for the projects came straight from the DHS. This icky feeling was there long before I heard about Prism.

You don't need an ethical guidebook to consider the implications of the work you're doing. I don't think lack of explicit instructions is an excuse. I don't want to invoke Godwin just yet...but suffice to say, a lot of bad things have been done in the name of good. And there were people in the loop who had the ability to see what was going on.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#99

Post by nitrogen »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #85
PavlovsCat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and the soldiers don't make the orders, the generals don't make the politics, the politicians just try to keep the military industrial complex fat and snugly and the citizens happy, the citizens just crave security because that's what the media says is what citizens crave while the military industrial complex just seeks profit because it's required to by stockholders and everyone else involved, who are just try…

So why is that in polite company, even those that are opposed to our various wars are obliged to toe the line, "we support our troops"? Even in 21st century America, we continue to fool ourselves, thinking that somehow soldiers can be noble, heroes even, all the while being engaged something that is immoral.

Perhaps because many of them are friends and family of said polite company who may have been persuaded to join with incomplete information, or lacked the economic resources to refuse to join when recruiters came calling.
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