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The college-for-all model isn't working

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Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#81
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have skilled labor shortages at the prices they're willing to pay. Every time you hear an employer claim they can't find someone for a position, inquire about the salary they're offering.

This type of bullshit seems to be widely believed on HN. I work in the engineering department of a software company and I'm closely involved with recruitment and interviews. I'll tell you this: the vast majority of people (over 95%) we turn down are unqualified, period. Meaning, we wouldn't hire them even at half the salary level advertised for the position. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're willing to…

To me this could also be prima facie evidence of possibilities outside of the one you listed.

(1) You're company maybe an undesirable place to work. In Fresno, CA there are couple self described big-name software firms that fancy themselves "local google". Only willing to hire the best and brightest as it were. But sadly for them, the best and brightest aren't cutting it for them. They verbatim claim the same thing you are now, good salaries, but no one coming in for an interview is worth it. The real truth is that the word has gotten out: their products stink, they treat their employees like children, and their competitive salaries are not that competitive in the larger market. The so called "best and brightest" just avoid their front door.

(1b) Just highlighting something in part 1. You are getting what you are paying for and that means you are not paying well.

(1c) Your other employees suck. I don't want to work at a place where people are rude or incapable or working in teams, or simply bad at their jobs. It makes my experience worse. Whenever an interview goes well, I always ask to meet the rest of the staff, if only just for a second. To see what they are like.

(2) Your interview process is flawed. Assuming (1) is provably untrue, then it might be time to take a good look at the interview process you are employing. I've been through so many interviews where it was clear that the (wo)man doing the interview was simply looking for someone to solve exactly one problem, or the name a specific function, or the input format for a function in a given language, or for me to suggest a specific solution(and no other), etc.

Worse still, the moment you cannot answer the question or suggest that a simple Google search would help produce a more ideal solution, or lord forbid simply suggest that an alternative solution might be better, there is this shift in perceived power. It almost seems like the interview process can be an adversarial means of verifying that the interviewer is indeed smarter than the interviewee. At this point during such "skills test" interviews, I politely tell the interviewer that I'm not the candidate they are looking for and conclude the interview.

(3) You haven't gotten the word out. How many people really know that your company is looking for someone (1, 10, 100)? Are you really getting the message out to the greater engineering community. Perhaps you are only reaching a single subset, and that subset is not skilled in what you are looking for.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#82
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have skilled labor shortages at the prices they're willing to pay. Every time you hear an employer claim they can't find someone for a position, inquire about the salary they're offering.

This type of bullshit seems to be widely believed on HN. I work in the engineering department of a software company and I'm closely involved with recruitment and interviews. I'll tell you this: the vast majority of people (over 95%) we turn down are unqualified, period. Meaning, we wouldn't hire them even at half the salary level advertised for the position. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're willing to…

I totally 100% agree with you-- there is a crazy shortage of qualified software and IT engineers.

The funny part is the only people who will agree with you are other hiring managers. Everyone else will say you aren't paying enough or some other excuse. They are never sifting through the resumes or sitting through the interviews.

If we ever stumble across a qualified candidate, we make it happen. We just can't find very many qualified candidates.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#83

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get…

I'll take gross generalizations and stereotypes for $1000, alex.

Here's a thought: knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. Why not just, very respectfully and casually, insert the correct word into the discussion and help the guy pick this stuff up? It's called "teamwork" and it's really quite good at making work (and life) better.

I've worked with too many guys with EE and CE and CS degrees that just totally fall down on the job to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting. I think in reality it's about individual drive and intellectual appetite. But that's just my own observation.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#84

For those who aren't aware, this is an op-ed (meaning the newspaper doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed) from a right-wing Koch brothers organization. Several commenters have already noted that the fundamental "fact" here, that certain vocations are experiencing major shortages (the "skills mismatch" claim) is completely false, which it is. The Great Recession stretches across all job fields and locations i…

are you ok with the vast amount of money and time currently wasted on higher education? do you think the four year degree is really the most appropriate form of training in most cases?

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major benefit of college is a baseline of domain knowledge that will serve you in your professional career, but indeed, that’s also a major benefit of a technical program. The real disconnect is that college is also (or at least is supposed to be, or has traditionally been) a schooling in the liberal arts. Four years spent learning to think critically about society and culture as well as one's area of specializatio…

I've always wondered about the reputed benefit of learning to think critically from a liberal arts education. For example, with engineering, an airplane built from your design flies or does not. There's no pretending it flies when it doesn't. Reality cannot be fooled, so one is forced to learn to think critically. But with liberal arts, the same person can argue both points of view with equal facility - how does one…

Learning the engineering variety of critical thinking does not automatically translate to politics, social policy, or fiscal policy.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#86

For those who aren't aware, this is an op-ed (meaning the newspaper doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed) from a right-wing Koch brothers organization. Several commenters have already noted that the fundamental "fact" here, that certain vocations are experiencing major shortages (the "skills mismatch" claim) is completely false, which it is. The Great Recession stretches across all job fields and locations i…

There are skill shortages, just look to any job that pays over $100k. Data Scientists, Web Developers, Oil Rig Workers, Underwater welders, etc. The problem is that they arn't easy skills to learn or they arn't comfortable tasks to do.

Is it a skills shortage or a won't-pay-market-value shortage? If more MBA's and the like start choosing silicon valley will Wall Street cry shortage or will they just raise the rates of pay and bonuses? If someone making 100k a year couldn't find a helicopter to buy they would be laughed out of the room if they suggested it was due to a shortage of helicopters rather then them not having enough money to buy. But companies who have every incentive to keep wages down are listened to and believed whenever they proclaim that there is a skills shortage, rather than people questioning whether they're paying enough.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#87
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 19 year old programmer who just dropped out, this eases my anxiety. A lot.

I was you 12 years ago. The odds are still against you. You will lose opportunities due to credentialism. The best bet is to become better than your peers and be in the top 5% of the talent pool. When you work with someone who really knows their shit, shadow them. The better bet is to eventually go independent once you know you're more towards the top of the heap. Years ago, a McKinsey subsidiary ultimately ruled me…

I was you 12 years ago.

And it's even worse now.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the presence of a shortage, the value of an employee approaches infinity. I expect that you are really constrained by the amount of money your company can afford, else you'd just walk over to Google/Facebook/Microsoft/whoever and walk out with their best employees in hand. Almost nobody is going to turn down a multi-million dollar offer, if it even takes that much.

Then Google/Facebook/Microsoft/whoever is without that talent. How does this prove there's no shortage?

I'm not sure I was trying to prove that there isn't a shortage, rather if you're only offering a "generous" rate and not the rate that actually attracts people, then you are not really playing in the market.

With that said, what is a shortage? Is there a shortage of Ferraris because I cannot afford one, or am I just too poor to consider owning one? Is there a shortage of developers until every developer is working for minimum wage so that the poorest of poor companies can afford them too?

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#89
post #68
post #34

We're not saving for our kids' college. The oldest is 16 years away, and we believe that college will either be totally unaffordable, or the bubble will have burst and won't exist in its current form. We are focusing on our retirement instead, because we believe it's far better to take care of that and not become a burden on your kids just when they're trying to take care of their own families and retirements.

It's also far more valuable to teach your kids to save for their own college. A few years of odd jobs, paper delivery, whatever will make them appreciate that money isn't infinite. My parents didn't (and couldn't) afford to pay for my college, and thanks to that I knew that every year I stayed would be another ten grand in debt I would have to pay off. That led to me leaving university after a pointless year and goin…

I don't know that a paper delivery route will have a meaningful impact on college tuition.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#90

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

> My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke I'm sorry for you. My college experience was very valuable to me (not for the diploma, nobody cares about my diploma, least of all me). I learned a great deal about how to solve problems, how to figure out what was important, how to separate truth from crap, how to learn, and the confidence that I can do it. Caltech's honor system has also been very fo…

I went to Caltech and worked at the JPL prior to going to Google. I can't say my time at Caltech was particularly worthwhile in terms of what I gained.
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