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The college-for-all model isn't working

latimes.com

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Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#51

Post by tbrownaw »

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #29
enraged_camel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of bullshit seems to be widely believed on HN. I work in the engineering department of a software company and I'm closely involved with recruitment and interviews. I'll tell you this: the vast majority of people (over 95%) we turn down are unqualified, period. Meaning, we wouldn't hire them even at half the salary level advertised for the position. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're willing to…

"Unqualified" by what standard? What makes you think your standards are appropriate for the positions you're offering? And what makes you think your salaries are "very generous?" Lot's of companies think their salary/benefits packages are "very generous" when they're anything but. Without context your post is a giant meaningless assertion. Software developers aren't (typically) stupid. They have a reasonable idea of…

What I've seen is supposedly-experienced programmers who can't write FizzBuzz, or claim database experience but don't know why a cross-join is bad or what it is, or who claim to be experts at $TOOL but can only recite a handful of memorized answers and just pick whichever sounds closest to the question.

Software developers (supposedly) aren't stupid. Applicants for software development positions on the other hand...

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#52

Post by cortesoft »

ignostic wrote: post #16

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

As a computer programmer, this really hasn't been my experience. I did not get a degree in a computer related field (have a BA in Philosophy), but have had no problems getting a job. I just showed the work I did for personal projects, and landed a job in weeks. I have since hired many developers, and I only look at education experience if there is nothing else that shows they can do the work. I have hired many people who never went to college at all.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#53

Post by enraged_camel »

acuozzo wrote: post #38
enraged_camel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of bullshit seems to be widely believed on HN. I work in the engineering department of a software company and I'm closely involved with recruitment and interviews. I'll tell you this: the vast majority of people (over 95%) we turn down are unqualified, period. Meaning, we wouldn't hire them even at half the salary level advertised for the position. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're willing to…

> at half the salary level advertised for the position. Tell me, Ege, what salaries are advertised at the following URL? http://jobs.laserfiche.com/Jobs?dep=engineering I can't find any.

"Advertised" was the wrong word. But recruiters are quite upfront with the salary range for each position when they speak to candidates.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#54

Post by nickthemagicman »

nsxwolf wrote: post #48
jellicle wrote: post #33

For those who aren't aware, this is an op-ed (meaning the newspaper doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed) from a right-wing Koch brothers organization. Several commenters have already noted that the fundamental "fact" here, that certain vocations are experiencing major shortages (the "skills mismatch" claim) is completely false, which it is. The Great Recession stretches across all job fields and locations i…

Great that you noticed it's an op-ed by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but, is the college for all model working?

The other option is college for the rich. So it's working better than the alternative.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#55

Post by scotch_drinker »

fleitz wrote: post #31
buckbova wrote: post #3

" More Americans attend college today than ever before: this year, 42% of young people 18 to 24 years old." This is why education costs so much nowadays and the product is so poor. Everyone has the right to pursue learning. But, these folks aren't owed anything because they've sat through enough classes to earn a BA.

I don't understand how putting more students through college increases the cost per student, in normal industries more business generally means reduced costs.

High demand almost always means higher prices unless the supply is increased proportionally. That's different from what I think you are saying which is as a product is easier to produce, it's price goes down.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#56

Post by cheesylard »

cortesoft wrote: post #52
ignostic wrote: post #16

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

As a computer programmer, this really hasn't been my experience. I did not get a degree in a computer related field (have a BA in Philosophy), but have had no problems getting a job. I just showed the work I did for personal projects, and landed a job in weeks. I have since hired many developers, and I only look at education experience if there is nothing else that shows they can do the work. I have hired many people…

As a 19 year old programmer who just dropped out, this eases my anxiety. A lot.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#57

Post by conjecTech »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #54
nsxwolf wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great that you noticed it's an op-ed by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but, is the college for all model working?

The other option is college for the rich. So it's working better than the alternative.

How is that the only other option? How about college for those that will increase their economic productivity beyond the added cost?

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#58

Post by digitalzombie »

ignostic wrote: post #16

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree.

This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get shit done without thinking about any other possible solutions or the consequences of their chosen solution.

I've worked under one. From my imperfect memory, he basically ask to make the API to be as good as their competitor.

When I ask more questions to clarify it. The said programmer got frustrated and threw a tantrum. Eventually, I found out the asshole, who lack soft skills, just wanted a async call methods in the api from client to the server.

edit: added most, because I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#59

Post by 3pt14159 »

jellicle wrote: post #33

For those who aren't aware, this is an op-ed (meaning the newspaper doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed) from a right-wing Koch brothers organization. Several commenters have already noted that the fundamental "fact" here, that certain vocations are experiencing major shortages (the "skills mismatch" claim) is completely false, which it is. The Great Recession stretches across all job fields and locations i…

There are skill shortages, just look to any job that pays over $100k. Data Scientists, Web Developers, Oil Rig Workers, Underwater welders, etc. The problem is that they arn't easy skills to learn or they arn't comfortable tasks to do.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#60

Post by encoderer »

aantix wrote: post #22
ignostic wrote: post #16

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…

I'm not sure why companies ever got away from the idea that they could avoid training employees? In Silicon Valley you see the same pool of startups competing for the same pool of Rails/Backbone.js developers all because they'd rather perceive to get a complete package up front. The apprenticeship model should be re-embraced.

Because that model worked well when a person worked for a company for 10+ years -- and often an entire career. But now? It's a poor investment.

Of course, this, like many factors, is both a cause and an effect of this more fluid labor market.

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